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Interesting 'Pacer' feature on BBC Magazine

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HMS Ark Royal

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Shall I send you my name and address now then? :lol:

There's already a couple of pacers in preservation, at least one of each needs to be preserved for future generations, and love them or hate them, they play an important part in the history of the UK railways.

I'm right alongside you - I also want to preserve them
 

Bletchleyite

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As I said, the one sent to Thailand wasn't one of ours, it was built to metre-gauge, as an attempt to secure further orders.

While I don't think any were forthcoming, we did of course export a Class 158 derivative fleet to Thailand some years later, so it can't have put them off too much! :)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm right alongside you - I also want to preserve them

Me too, a big part of my childhood. I also fancy driving one; I'd imagine a preserved railway somewhere will oblige for a few hundred quid at some point, as indeed Wirksworth did with a Class 101 a few years ago.
 
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HMS Ark Royal

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On branch lines they're fine - I've used them a fair bit down in Devon and never any problems. The large windows and low seats of the 142s were great for sightseeing and quite pleasant at quieter times with the bench seats. Was even lucky enough a few years ago to have a ride in the rear cab of 142001 on the Exmouth branch which was good!

Would that have been when the infamous "Doctor Death" was spotted on top of a storage shed filming it?
 

61653 HTAFC

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Come on, young sir. Let us keep a level playing field and a sense of proportion in comparisons. I could say that I would rather wait in a short queue at Lidl than wait in a long queue at Waitrose, if you see what I mean.

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather we'd not needed pacers (even a life-extension of first generation units would've been preferable in my opinion) but we have them now so we may as well run them until they drop. They aren't far off that point anyway now, after all! Perhaps what I should've said is "I'd rather a seat on a pacer than be crush-loaded onto an actual bus!"

I'm right alongside you - I also want to preserve them

Some may argue that they should be preserved as a warning from history! I'd say that at least one of each type ought to be because of their historic importance, though it would be rather odd to have lots of 142s preserved when we didn't bag any of the rather handsome Transpennine class 124 units!
 

The Ham

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Some may argue that they should be preserved as a warning from history! I'd say that at least one of each type ought to be because of their historic importance, though it would be rather odd to have lots of 142s preserved when we didn't bag any of the rather handsome Transpennine class 124 units!

The whole if you don't learn from history you are doomed to repeat it...
 

bramling

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Living in London, I have never had the dubious pleasure of travelling on a Pacer. How would travelling on one be best described?

As my local preserved line is the Bluebell, it's very unlikely that one will appear there, despite the appearance of the odd diesel over the past few years.

Personally I don't find them anywhere near as bad as some people make them out to be.

On jointless track the ride is fine, and generally I don't find the seating too bad. The exceptions are the Merseytravel 142s, and the 144s, both of which have extremely cramped seating -- however in both cases this is due to the design of seat and seating layout adopted during a refurbishment, so you can't blame that on the trains.

The only other real issues are squeal on curves (which can be quite bad at times), and in terms of crashworthiness they're not as good as other types of stock in certain collision scenarios.

I've done some fairly long journeys on 142s, for example Barrow to Carlisle and Southport to Manchester Airport, and found them perfectly okay - as long as not a Merseytravel interior version. At least you get a good view out of the window, and the legroom is still better than some types of class 150 or 153 - or even a 156 or 158 if someone is sitting directly opposite you.
 

61653 HTAFC

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While I don't think any were forthcoming, we did of course export a Class 158 derivative fleet to Thailand some years later, so it can't have put them off too much! :)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---.

Are they still in Regional Railways Express livery? If so, that's the last place it exists!
 

AM9

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Living in London, I have never had the dubious pleasure of travelling on a Pacer. How would travelling on one be best described?

As my local preserved line is the Bluebell, it's very unlikely that one will appear there, despite the appearance of the odd diesel over the past few years.

Similarly for me, living exclusively in the South-East/Anglia/South-Coast areas, I had not experienced travel on a Pacer, - that was until last year.
I managed to make two very different trips in the North-West, - 142018, from Preston to Blackpool South, which was a pleasant branch line experience. Although I'm not one of those who obsesses about seats lining-up with windows, the unobstructed and airy view from most seats was very welcome and quite appropriate for a low speed journey with regular stops.
The other trip was on a less well fitted out 142, (didn't get the number but it was coupled to 150114) from Victoria to Hebden Bridge. The seats were individually upholstered but with lower backs. It rattled along at up to 75 'ish up to Rochdale and Todmorden. It seemed quite capable of maintaining linespeeds and climbed up Miles Platting Bank effortlessly. There were bouncy moments and the combination of that with the open nature of the view made the speed seem a bit of a dash at times.
Whatever the DfT says about removing Pacers from bids, I suspect that they will remain in place on lines that don't have really good BCRs until they are life expired, so limited investment funds can go where there is a better case.

A far more likely long-term use would be on preserved lines, particularly where there is a semblance of a public service rather than just enthusiast days. They have relatively low running costs and at light-railway speeds, track wear and suspension issues coulsd be manageable. For passengers, their high passenger capacity for their size and weight and the clear views would also make for pleasant journeys, even previous regular passengers who were glad to see their eventual disappearance from commuter services.
 

TH172341

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Would that have been when the infamous "Doctor Death" was spotted on top of a storage shed filming it?

Haha - nah - this was just a normal day in service. Back in Easter 2008. The conductors, two of them, had noticed me filming the trip from Dawlish and at Exeter Central kindly invited me to come film from the rear cab down to Exmouth. Very lucky!
 

bramling

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What's wrong with the Class 700 as a train for use on a high-density commuter service? It seems perfect for that role.

That someone might use it for Bedford-Brighton just shows how Thameslink isn't set up for that journey, really.

Okay, yes you're right the class 700 is perfectly good for inner-suburban workings.

The problem seems to be that Thameslink seems to be trying to achieve too many things. On the one-hand it's an outer-suburban commuter service, where something along the lines of the class 377 or 450 is more appropriate. The interior design is based around achieving short dwell times in Central London, because they want to tie in as many routes and services into Thameslink as possible. Scale back the 24tph peak requirement and the 700 could then have a more comfortable interior, and the whole network would be more reliable too.
 

Darren R

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The article doesn't say what it's like to drive the bloody things. I'd be interested in hearing what the drivers who are in them day in and out think of them.

Well I'm not a driver, so I can't answer your question directly. However, I once found myself descending the steps to platform 5 at Manchester Victoria immediately behind someone in Northern uniform. As he saw the Pacer standing in the platform simmering gently, I heard him mutter, sotto voce, "Oh for ****'s sake..." He subsequently turned out to be the driver, so draw your own conclusions! :lol:

Porterbrook are only responsible for "posh Pacers" ...

Surely the very definition of an oxymoron? :D
 

Bevan Price

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Shall I send you my name and address now then? :lol:

There's already a couple of pacers in preservation, at least one of each needs to be preserved for future generations, and love them or hate them, they play an important part in the history of the UK railways.
Yes - as a lesson for the future - how not to design a passenger train...
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes - as a lesson for the future - how not to design a passenger train...

In the context of when they were built, given views on accessibility at that time, the only thing I really find wrong with them is the lack of bogies. I don't see any massive problem with the concept - all they really are is a slightly wider high-floor diesel tram. And a 141 basically is a diesel tram - not all that different from some of the OPO trams found in Blackpool prior to modernisation.

They really are not substantially different in ambiance to these, either:
http://www.stadlerrail.com/media/uploads/GTHU1108e_Thurbo.pdf
 
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randyrippley

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the real problem are with the rattles and shakes in the Leyland bodied vehicles, the Alexander bodied ones are a lot less irritable to ride in. The problem with the Leyland ones is the sectional modular construction, which doesn't really give any great longtitudinal rigidity in the body structure. Since the Leyland National, bus design has moved on and rather than repeating modules, some body builders (e.g. Wrights) use long body-length runners of extruded aluminium. Much more rigid. Much stronger, and lighter.
Leyland have gone, Alexanders aren't interested in building new rail carriages, but I can see that in a few years once all the Boris buses have been delivered Wrights may have a production gap and could be interested in providing lightweight extruded bodyshells for Pacer-style carriages. Whether you'd fit them onto Pacer chassis, or Sprinter-style (like the 153/155 - don't forget they are also Leyland National bodies) is something to think about closely, but with 30 years technology development since the birth of the Pacers a better 4-wheeled version should be possible.
 

randyrippley

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If Network Rail could get over it, a modern version of a Pacer would almost certainly be articulated (6 axles per 2 car unit).

Gresley used articulation, and so did the APT (in part) so there is precedence for it in high-speed use. Trundling along at 75mph should be a doddle for the engineers
 
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Bletchleyite

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Indeed.

To be honest, if you asked me for an example of a modern day Pacer I'd probably say a slightly beefed-up (for safety), wider, diesel version of:

2009617_123418.jpg


Which isn't far off what a Stadler GTW or Flirt is.
 
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Mikey C

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A few preserved railways (Weardale is one) already have 141s, FWIW.

I have visions of an excited child being taken by his father to a preserved railway, expecting a ride on a steam train only to find he'll be riding on a Pacer instead :lol:
 

kevconnor

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The article notes the pacers have a good safety record. However, wasn't one of them totalled at a crash at winsford and wasn't there something particular about that incident to raise causes for concern on their structural integrity?
 

Bletchleyite

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The article notes the pacers have a good safety record. However, wasn't one of them totalled at a crash at winsford and wasn't there something particular about that incident to raise causes for concern on their structural integrity?

If you smack a Class 87 and 9 Mk3s into anything at 100mph or thereabouts, it isn't going to come off well (remember the complete destruction of an entire Turbo coach at Southall). The Pacer's body sheared from the underframe, which I believe was as designed[1] but was later felt not to be so good in practice, so mountings were upgraded to prevent it in future. You can see the bolts for this in the doorwell.

[1] While Pacers are traditional body-underframe stock, the body is, unlike Mk1s, structural. The underframe was purely for convenience of construction. The Class 153/155 later used a very similar body without a separate underframe.
 
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