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"Invincible" class Through-Deck Cruisers/Carriers

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70014IronDuke

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Hi, I hope it's ok to ask a technical qn here on HM warships? (I have looked for a suitable military forum, but they all seem pretty dead.)

In the 1970-80s, Britain built three ships designed to take what became Sea Harriers. they were originally designated "through-deck cruisers' 'cos the Labour govt had deigned that aircraft carriers were non-u. By the time of Thatcher, and the Falklands conflict, it was politically safe to call them carriers :)

Qn: did these ships have steam catapults to assist Harriers to take off (as per previous 'classical' aircraft carriers) or did they merely rely on the Harrier jet engine thrust, plus the so-called 'ski-jump' developed as an after-thought, to get airborne?

I'm sure some in here know this for sure. TIA
 
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DarloRich

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Illustrious and Ark Royal were built by Swan Hunter on Tyneside - all gone now :(

I don't think they were fitted with any catapult equipment as surely the Harrier was designed to operate without such gear?
 

DarloRich

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None of the three carriers were fitted with catapults, nor were the Harriers equipped to be launched that way.

I thought so.

Interestingly that equipment is not to be fitted to the new class of carrier either. Was HMS Ark Royal (R09) the last so fitted in the RN?
 
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AlterEgo

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Sea Harriers definitely didn't need a catapult launch. You can find videos of them launching online.
 

najaB

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Interestingly that equipment is not to be fitted to the new class of carrier either.
But, if memory serves, they do have passive provision for EM catapults to be fitted at a later date if needed. The on again/off again saga of which version of the F-35 we would be buying (and hence if catapults were needed) is quite the tale.
 

Spamcan81

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I thought so.

Interestingly that equipment is not to be fitted to the new class of carrier either. Was HMS Ark Royal (R09) the last so fitted?

A big mistake IMO as that limits the types of aircraft that can operate from them.
Suspect the Ark was the last RN carrier so fitted. Hermes had catapults but they were removed during a refit in the early 70s. She of course gained a "ski jump" to facilitate the operation of Harriers.
 

70014IronDuke

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Sea Harriers definitely didn't need a catapult launch. You can find videos of them launching online.

Yes, but that's isn't the point: they didn't need a ski-jump or a flight deck either - they could "simply" take off and land vertically.

But that used an awful lot of fuel, and limited their payload. Hence they used the short flight deck and the ski-jump. AND, if they could use it, they would have used a catapult, for the same reasons.

I do agree that it looks like they didn't, however. Spamcan81 seems 100% confident.
 

TheEdge

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Interestingly that equipment is not to be fitted to the new class of carrier either. Was HMS Ark Royal (R09) the last so fitted in the RN?

Yea, HMS Ark Royal (R09) was the last catapult carrier the RN had. Also it was the last proper fleet carrier we had with multiple squadrons on board.

There are, possibly anecdotal, claims that Thatcher had said "can't we just send Ark Royal?" during the Falklands, temporarily forgetting it had been decommissioned a few years before. That war would have been a walkover had we still had Ark with Phantoms, Buccaneers and Gannets in the South Atlantic.
 

70014IronDuke

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Illustrious and Ark Royal were built by Swan Hunter on Tyneside - all gone now :(

Yes. I photographed Ark Royal under construction from the Durham bank of the Tyne in .. 80?

I don't think they were fitted with any catapult equipment as surely the Harrier was designed to operate without such gear?

Yes, I suspect the aircraft would have to be especially designed to take the stresses induced by a catapult launch.
 

TheEdge

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Yes, I suspect the aircraft would have to be especially designed to take the stresses induced by a catapult launch.

There is a significant amount of extra heavy engineering just the modify aircraft to take the stress of normal carrier operations, let alone the enourmous stress of a catapult launch. Think along the lines of strengthened jacking points on cars.
 

najaB

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A big mistake IMO as that limits the types of aircraft that can operate from them.
I believe it was the other way around - as designed they would have had catapults but the aircraft they will initially operate doesn't need them so they were never installed.
 

vrbarreto

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There is a lot of interest in EMALS and the Ford Class will have them at some point... Of course you will need to factor in the power requirements of such a system..
 

TheEdge

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There is a lot of interest in EMALS and the Ford Class will have them at some point... Of course you will need to factor in the power requirements of such a system..

I doubt the equipment going on the Ford carriers is of much relevance to anyone else anywhere! :lol:
 

70014IronDuke

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I doubt the equipment going on the Ford carriers is of much relevance to anyone else anywhere! :lol:

I wouldn't be so sure of that. I suspect there are quite a few folks in certain ministries in Moscow and Beijing who would be quite eager to know as much about it as possible. :roll:
 

AM9

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Sea Harriers definitely didn't need a catapult launch. You can find videos of them launching online.

Harriers and AV8As & Bs were VSTOL (Vertical/Short Take-Off & Landing) aircraft. The vertical take-off and landing capability was primarily for land-army use, e.g. take-off and landing at clearings in forests etc., - and of course airshows!
Vertical operation however imposed severe serviceability restrictions on the aircraft, both in operational range and maintenance cycles.
The operational range issue was the reason for the introduction of ski slopes on ships where a typical runway-type short take-off would severely restrict the capacity of such a small carrier.
The original Harrier design incorporated flying controls that were largely interconnected with cable and rod systems. This allowed any hydraulic or pneumatic prime movers to be optimally located and the removal of longer heavy pipes bringing an overal lighter airframe that improved manoeuvrability and range. This design served the aircraft well, however under hover conditions, airframe vibration was very high, and a comparably short period of non-forward flying, maybe a few tens of minutes, could eat up the service of a whole maintenance cycle. The McDonnell-Douglas solution for the US Marines fleet was to design conventional hydraulic control systems into an uprated airframe and engine configuration. The ski-slope by now had become the defacto take-off method for all Harriers, so the range implications of the additional weight were more easily manageable.
 

TheEdge

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I wouldn't be so sure of that. I suspect there are quite a few folks in certain ministries in Moscow and Beijing who would be quite eager to know as much about it as possible. :roll:

I meant more in the "can we fit that to our carriers" sort of way
 

AM9

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I wouldn't be so sure of that. I suspect there are quite a few folks in certain ministries in Moscow and Beijing who would be quite eager to know as much about it as possible. :roll:

Even historical equipment capability is useful to an enemy. That knowledge helps to define the operational limitations that the enemy had placed on themselves by their own equipment. Once that is generally known, the direction of current development can be predicted as well as the strategic and tactical options that might be used in the future.
 

DarloRich

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Yea, HMS Ark Royal (R09) was the last catapult carrier the RN had. Also it was the last proper fleet carrier we had with multiple squadrons on board.

There are, possibly anecdotal, claims that Thatcher had said "can't we just send Ark Royal?" during the Falklands, temporarily forgetting it had been decommissioned a few years before. That war would have been a walkover had we still had Ark with Phantoms, Buccaneers and Gannets in the South Atlantic.

Surely the decisions on the fleet carriers have to be read in light of the spending review deciding that the focus of the navy at that time ( and for lots of the time since) was in identifying, classifying, trailing and, if the time came, destroying soviet SSN/SSBM AND protecting our own SSBN from similar detection and prosecution.

NOTE:

SSN: Nuclear attack submarine ( Swiftsure/Trafalger/Astute class in the period in question

SSBN: Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarine ( Resolution & Vangaurd classes in the period in question)
 

ainsworth74

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I believe it was the other way around - as designed they would have had catapults but the aircraft they will initially operate doesn't need them so they were never installed.

Not really. When the project started the idea was always to continue with the short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) form of operation as had been perfected on the Invincible class. It was a requirement, however, that they be designed for conversion, should the need arise in the future, to conventional catapult assisted take off but with arrested recovery (CATOBAR) as found on US carriers and previously used by the RN up until Ark Royal (R09) decommissioned in 1979.

Design (and indeed initial construction) proceeded merrily along this path through the 1990s into the 00s and all the way through to the Defence cuts review of 2010 when the Tories decided instead to have one of the carriers converted to CATOBAR and the other was left with a rather uncertain future.

Now until this point the UK had signed up to the F-35 programme and intended to procured the B variant of that jet which is a STOVL capable aircraft. With the change of plan the Tories instead decided to buy the C variant which is not STOVL capable and is designed for CATOBAR operation (and has various advantages over the B variant but that discussion could fill its own thread).

We then get to around mid-2012 and the Tories, probably shocked by the costs of converting half-way through build from STOVL to CATOBAR and also faced with the development risk of the Electromagnetic Catapults, changed their mind again and went back to STOVL and the F-35B.

What is definitely true is that operating CATOBAR does open up a wide range of aircraft types to you (most of which can be bought off the shelf from the US). Using STOVL the only real choice of fighter is the F-35B (it's basically the only game in town) and you're limited otherwise to helicopters.

With CATOBAR you can pick from the F-35C or various versions of the F-18 (including electronic warfare specialists) as well as E-2s to give you radar coverage (something that we do with helicopters but that a fixed wing aircraft is better at) and C-2s for delivering supplies from shore to the carrier over long distances.

Of course, whilst all that is lovely in theory, the reality is that not only is CATOBAR more expensive to operate day to day the likelihood of the UK ever spending sufficient sums to procure and operate a host supporting aircraft is slim to none.

But it doesn't change the reality that operating STOVL does considerably reduce the range of aircraft you can pick to operate from your aircraft carrier and has tied us pretty much totally to the success or failure of the F-35B.

Whether that's a good or bad thing is up to the reader! Personally I would like for us to operate two CATOBAR carriers with full air wings but I accept that I'm a minority when it comes to that view in the public at large so STOVL with F-35B seems an acceptable alternative to me.

Surely the decisions on the fleet carriers have to be read in light of the spending review deciding that the focus of the navy at that time ( and for lots of the time since) was in identifying, classifying, trailing and, if the time came, destroying soviet SSN/SSBM AND protecting our own SSBN from similar detection and prosecution.

Rather than just the focus of the RN at that time I'd suggest it was the focus of the UK Armed Forces as a whole on continental Europe. Running around the world fighting wars was something that, by the 1970s (and even to an extent the 1960s), just wasn't on the radar anymore. The focus was on defending Europe from the Warsaw Pact and fleet carriers do not contribute anything much to that effort particularly when the US can provide fifteen of their own.

Of course events rather showed that that wasn't a wise decision!
 

Barn

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When the new carriers come in, how much of the current fleet will need to be repurposed as carrier escorts?

In 'peacetime', do carriers sail alone or are they always accompanies by destroyers / frigates / submarines?

My concern is that our (already very small) navy will lose further capability by having to tether some of its most capable ships to carriers rather than allowing them to pursue other activities. Can we still participate in anti-piracy, disaster relief, naval diplomacy, etc, in the same way?
 

najaB

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When the new carriers come in, how much of the current fleet will need to be repurposed as carrier escorts?

In 'peacetime', do carriers sail alone or are they always accompanies by destroyers / frigates / submarines?
As per Wikipedia, an American carrier strike group consists of 1 Aircraft Carrier, 1 Guided Missile Cruiser (for Air Defense), 2 LAMPS (Light Airborne Multi-Purpose System) Capable Warships (focusing on Anti-Submarine and Surface Warfare), and 1–2 Anti Submarine Destroyers or Frigates. Typically there will be at least one hunter/killer submarine somewhere nearby as well.

I doubt we'll be able to commit as much resource.
 

DarloRich

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Sorry in terms of conventional capabilities rather than the deterrent. That is working as designed!

well: your SSN can ( and does) often undertake the tasks that would have been the sole preserve of your air wing in the past. A Tomahawk armed submarine is a pretty powerful, hidden and accurate land attack weapon.
 

DarloRich

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As per Wikipedia, an American carrier strike group consists of 1 Aircraft Carrier, 1 Guided Missile Cruiser (for Air Defense), 2 LAMPS (Light Airborne Multi-Purpose System) Capable Warships (focusing on Anti-Submarine and Surface Warfare), and 1–2 Anti Submarine Destroyers or Frigates. Typically there will be at least one hunter/killer submarine somewhere nearby as well.

I doubt we'll be able to commit as much resource.

we wont - Our carrier group will generally be, depending on the threat:

  • one/two type 23 (or type 26 in due course) frigate,
  • one/two type 45 destroyer,
  • one RFA tanker
  • one (maybe - if we have any spare) SSN hanging about somewhere
  • a couple of minesweepers if needed.

(AKA the entire Royal Navy ;) )

A bigger, more multi national, fleet would be created for more intense combat operations.
 
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TheEdge

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well: your SSN can ( and does) often undertake the tasks that would have been the sole preserve of your air wing in the past. A Tomahawk armed submarine is a pretty powerful, hidden and accurate land attack weapon.

But its not all that great at air defence, or early warning, or providing close air support.

Back to the Falkands being the big example of this. Would Sheffield have been sunk if Ark Royal instead of Hermes was the Falkland flag ship flying supersonic FAA Phantoms shooting down the Super Etendards long before they got in Exocet range? Same with the bomb attacks on San Carlos, could they have ben detected if the FAA Gannets were about? Buccs flying under the radar at Port Stanley and hitting the garrison.

Before the Falklands the RN was going to be loose its capabilities as a blue water navy and become not much more than a force to patrol the GIUK gap.
 

DarloRich

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But its not all that great at air defence, or early warning, or providing close air support.

perhaps not close air support or air defense but early warning ( of sorts) is one of the tasks the SSN undertakes. It was pioneered in the Falklands and consists of observance and/ or interception of ELINT and immediate transmission to the fleet of air raid warnings and numbers of aircraft involved.


Back to the Falklands being the big example of this. Would Sheffield have been sunk if Ark Royal instead of Hermes was the Falkland flag ship flying supersonic FAA Phantoms shooting down the Super Etendards long before they got in Exocet range? Same with the bomb attacks on San Carlos, could they have ben detected if the FAA Gannets were about? Buccs flying under the radar at Port Stanley and hitting the garrison.

Would that the RN were allowed to sink the Veinticinco de Mayo when one of the SSN's was on its trail and was in position to fire. The loss of the air wing would have had serious repercussions for the Argentine ability to fire its Exocet.

Before the Falklands the RN was going to be loose its capabilities as a blue water navy and become not much more than a force to patrol the GIUK gap.

But that is where the battle would have been.

The US/UK SNN (and SSK) fleet would have attacked and thinned out Russian numbers closer to Russia (and would have taken losses doing so) but any Russian attack submarines that got away ( and some would have due to numbers) were to be identified by SOSUS/Nimrod and attacked by ASW ships in the GIUK gap in the hope the sea route from the USA could be held open to reinforce Europe and stop a soviet attack.

that or we used the other type of submarine............

( tactics did change later on when the US decided that getting their carriers up to the north of Norway would allow them to take on the Russian maritime attack aircraft ( and submarines) closer to home and hopefully knock them out of the war early. Was any of this actually sensible?)
 
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