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Irish Rail - Stations under review

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radamfi

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I'm ttalking about Dublin the city. The areas you talk about are actual regions rather than cities. Even if you are talking about Dublin the city and comparing it with regions, Dublin as a city has approx 20-25% of the whole countries population.

When we say 'city' when talking about transport we normally mean 'urban area'. For example, the City of Manchester is very small compared to the urban area around it, because of historic boundaries and has a population of around half a million, much less than Dublin. It doesn't even contain Old Trafford, where Manchester United play. But most people think Greater Manchester to be the more 'sensible' definition of Manchester, and that has a population of over 2 million. Dublin, by contrast, has no such ambiguity and the 'city' is largely consistent with the urban area.

Have you seen a Dublin Bus timetable? There are no intermediate stop times. The times listed are the times that the bus departs the terminus. For all the faults of the UK system, at least you have a better idea when a bus can arrive from the timetable.

Up until 2012 I would say that Dublin Bus was much worse than most of the UK, you had buses built to specifications that had not changed since the early 1990s, fares that were impossible to work out, an antiqued fare system and the only period tickets available based on unreliable magnetic stripe technology built on even more unreliable readers, basic interiors and few stops where timetables were displayed, a lot of stops (and about half of them still are) just consisted of a pole with a Dublin Bus logo, with no timetable or indication of what route stopped there.

I would agree that infrastructure at the roadside is/was poor in Dublin, but it is often poor in the UK as well. The peculiar fashion of only quoting departure times at termini can be got around using real time info. Routes are generally frequent enough that you normally don't need a timetable. Because there is no deregulation, you don't have to worry about frequent timetable changes.

You can't even buy a day or weekly ticket on the bus even to this day!

I don't see that as a bad thing as it slows down boarding. The British tradition since deregulation of buying weekly or even monthly tickets on the bus is frankly nuts. And now with the Leap card there is no need as there is daily and weekly capping.
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I've got the timetable book from August 2007 and for each route it clearly shows the list of fare stages and the number of each stage. So even then you could work out whether your fare was 1-3, 4-7 or 8-13 stages. The monthly/annual fares have gone up a huge amount since then. The monthly was 83 euro and the annual was 780. Presumably a result of the economic catastrophe.
 
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Hornet

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The trouble with Leap on the Bus though, is having to interface with the Driver for many of the fare options. For example, if I put a Five Day Rambler on my Leap I have to remember to make sure that I a) have extra money on the card if I want to make one or two short stage journeys in a day and b) ensure I use the Drivers validator if I want to make a couple of stage 13+ journeys a day. Not particulary user friendly. You have to be a bit savvy to get the best out of Leap. There are a couple of ways around this though. Either Tag in/out. (This would require a return to central door buses, with enforcement of exiting through the centre doors, something Dublin Bus Drivers never seemed to want to do). Or use the single stage (one fare) principle for any length of Dublin Bus Journey.

There has been a poor take up of Leap by the General Public. Doing a straw poll on my local routes see's a majority of passengers still using cash (around 60%). Around 25% use Leap with the rest on Travel 90's, Annual Ticket and Social Welfare passes. Any Driver interface increases dwell times. We should be moving away from cash fares, but unless the system (fares and card usage) is easy for ALL people to understand, knowing that the majority of Dubs might only use Buses on the odd occasion, then people will be resistant to change and will demand the retention of the cash option, or just not use the Bus.
 

F Great Eastern

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I've got the timetable book from August 2007 and for each route it clearly shows the list of fare stages and the number of each stage. So even then you could work out whether your fare was 1-3, 4-7 or 8-13 stages.

The timetable books did have it in, but they haven't been produced for years and very few people would have a timetable book since they could only be obtained from Dublin Bus HQ.

The other weird thing with Dublin Bus is they have several different timetable sheet designs, ones which were used in bus shelters another one which were used on stops without bus shelters, and ones which are used on trueform style bus stops. The former (but not the later two) did carry stage names for a while, but at that point there were few bus stops with shelters as it was a few years ago.

Then when Dublin Bus changed it's corporate colours to yellow and black a few years ago, they removed stage names and numbers from these style timetables as well and ever since there has been no sign of them on any on street displays or timetables of any kind, save for a couple of early trial yellow and black designs in bus shelters that have since been replaced long ago.

If you go on any respectable Irish transport forum, you will see many threads on this, from both staff and passengers alike.

I don't see that as a bad thing as it slows down boarding. The British tradition since deregulation of buying weekly or even monthly tickets on the bus is frankly nuts. And now with the Leap card there is no need as there is daily and weekly capping.

Believe me dwell time is awful in Dublin as it is on a large number of routes, thanks to the fare system, people not knowing their fare, slow ticket machines which needed replacing long ago, huge tri axle double deckers with one door, and drivers on double door buses refusing to use the middle doors, since they "Don't agree with them" or view them as unsafe, despite having many modifications made to them to try and overcome this.

Routes are generally frequent enough that you normally don't need a timetable. Because there is no deregulation, you don't have to worry about frequent timetable changes.

The top 20 routes or so would be frequent enough, but there are a good few routes that would operate half hourly or even less often, as well as many high frequency routes that would operate every 30 minutes off-peak and as little as every 60 minutes at weekends despite their high frequency weekday peak frequency.

Dublin Bus also have a history of not keeping timetables up to date at stops also. Only a couple of months ago Dublin Bus introduced temporary summer timetables, and instead of printing the new timetables for the stop, affixed a note to the old timetable saying something along the line s that the above timetable is not valid for two months a year, and to go online to see the actual timetable for the route.

Also RTPI screens only cover about 10% of the network, and even then only at the most popular stops with the highest frequency services. So whilst RTPI negates the need for intermediate point timetables somewhat, where the need for intermediate times is needed more, is by and large where real time information is not available on street.
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There are a couple of ways around this though. Either Tag in/out. (This would require a return to central door buses, with enforcement of exiting through the centre doors, something Dublin Bus Drivers never seemed to want to do).

That would require replacing and investing in modern on bus ticketing equipment which is sadly, never going to happen at least in the short term.

Or use the single stage (one fare) principle for any length of Dublin Bus Journey.

It's believed that this has been ruled out since the company fears it could have a negative effect on overall fares collected.
 
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IR-Mark4/ICR

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Just to point a few things out, no stations will be closed. The Limerick regional lines to Waterford and BallyB are the biggest risk but the reality is no stations will close unless those lines do.

This media article made it into the independent because of a online discussion about Irish Rail and a whole raft of issues.

Its worth remembering the stats are from 2012 and its one day out of 362 other operational days. The figures tell nothing of any significance.

Finally some of the stations with less than 100 passengers don't have any staff present so closing them wouldn't save a penny for the company.

Using Attymon as an example, 3 passengers and an un staffed station. Only 7 trains stop at this station Monday-Friday out of a possible 21. No train towards Galway after 09.35 and no train towards Dublin until 17.50.

I think context is needed!
 

radamfi

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with Bus Eireann and Iarnrod Eireann both run by CIE, one wonders why they chase costumers of each other and not co-operate.

Compared to England and other European countries, the coach has historically been quite competitive with the train in terms of journey time, so it makes more sense for the coach to be as fast as possible, which means it competes against the train.

Now the motorway network is more comprehensive and uncongested, the coach is even more competitive, even on the Dublin to Cork line which until recently was overwhelmingly quicker by train. Bus Eireann wasn't exploiting this as much as they could have, as explained in earlier posts, so it arguably was holding back from competing with the train head on until recently.
 

F Great Eastern

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The funny thing about Dublin to Cork is that whilst Aircoach are the dominant operator on that route, it didn't have to be that way and I'm sure with hindsight that the competition would have done things a lot different but Bus Eireann have always been behind the curve ball on this corridor and Aircoach had been leading the way for some time even before they commenced their non stop service they steadily eating into BE passengers numbers over a number of years.

Before the non stop service launched, Aircoach had seven services daily every two hours from 7am to 7pm in both directions taking 3hrs 45 mins city to city, and 4hrs 15 mins to the Airport. Bus Eireann ran six a day started later at 8am and finished earlier at 6pm taking 4hrs 20 minutes City to City but didn't serve Dublin Airport.

Despite this BE were still doing pretty well on their route and they were regularly running reliefs on their regular Dublin to Cork service that ran non stop alongside the stopping coach that ran at the same time, since you can run reliefs to regular services that make limited stops without a license, providing they are only used when the other coach is full, are not scheduled and leave at the same time as the timetabled regular coach. Bus Eireann were doing this for years but never applied for the direct license which to this day I cannot work out why.

Soon as Aircoach launched the non stop service 18 times daily Bus Eireann omitted three stops from it's service then extended it to Dublin Airport, renamed it the X8 and introduced a new fleet of coaches. However the timetable was unrealistic, since they reduced the running time by about 40 minutes and in reality removing two stops saved nowhere near that amount of time so they later had to increase the running time by 10 minutes.

In the meantime they applied for a license for a non stop route, and were rejected, since GoBus had applied for the second license and been awarded it before BE could get an application in. GoBus was handed the license a short while before Aircoach announced and started services having been awarded the license some months earlier, obviously wanting to get a head start on GoBus. Aircoach at the time didn't have any coaches that had toilets (the old stopping service had a rest break mid-way) and had a mix of several different types of coach with several different liveries operating on the service at the start and several hire ins as well as they did not have enough staff to run all services, so it very much gave the impression of a rushed launch and there was very little in the way of marketing.

Most of us with interest and involved in the industry expected GoBus to launch pretty quickly to stop Aircoach getting a head start but they never did and I personally felt at that stage Aircoach were vulnerable, if they had a proper challenger but over the course of 4-5 months they steadily built up good loads through word of mouth and started needing to run the odd relief coach, First Cymru then started to ship in six toilet equipped coaches in the summer and they got two toilet equipped demonstrators on loan, and started to brand their coaches for the route. By which point almost six months after the launch, it was getting pretty obvious they held a strong position.

Meanwhile there were reports that GoBus had second thoughts over launching due to infrastructure and start up costs and in the end they entered a three way agreement with Bus Eireann and Bernard Kavanagh. GoBus would supply the route license, and be the legal operators of the service and sell the tickets through GoBus.ie, Bernard Kavanagh would supply the vehicles, depot facilities and drivers whilst Bus Eireann would help market the service, provide the infrastructure for the terminus either end at bus stations and own the rights to the service name (GoBE) and branding. However since the coaches used are not part of GoBus itself there are only 3 coaches liveried in the GoBE livery which often results in a number of mish mash liveries and random vehicles from the Bernard Kavanagh depot many branded for different operators with small GoBE stickers stuck over the top.

This led to some early oddities with the service that run 15 times daily. Tickets could only be bought online through the GoBus website, and could not be bought on coach or at the bus station (which was widely saw as GoBus ensuring all sales go through itself and not the other parties involved in the arrangement. However they did make a mistake with the pricing structure. Namely that they undercut Aircoach by a couple of quid from the start for online fares, which up to that point Aircoach charged the same online as on bus. Straight away Aircoach dropped their online prices to a euro below GoBus and with the much greater volume and full coaches Aircoach could sustain that and still make the service pay but GoBus could not.

Very quickly GoBus dropped their services from 15 times a day to 10 times a day and a while later to 8 times a day. The most recent timetable change has seen them drop to 6 times a day apart from on Fridays and Sundays when they operate 3 extra services to make a total of 9, although the three extra service do not serve Dublin Airport, widely seen as targeting peak traffic. They also dropped all early morning services to Dublin Airport and late services from Dublin Airport and have increased their prices 3 times since the service started. Meanwhile the Aircoach service still operators the same timetable they started two and a half years ago, and had it's first price rise earlier this year with tickets now starting at €10 rather than €9 and introduced a fleet of 10 new coaches earlier this year.

However to bring this totally back on topic, it has been very interesting to see that GoBE have always tried to avoid targeting train passengers, no doubt related to their links with BE who are a sister company of Irish Rail, especially with this not being a true BE service. They have directly targeted Aircoach passengers in the past and continue to do so but never train passengers and surely there has to be something in that. For example during the Irish Rail strike, Aircoach have been keen to stress they will be adding extra capacity, but GoBus have been keen to stress their fully self run Galway service will be there to help train passengers on social media but are not doing the same for the Cork route.
 
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