Is 2 days off a week an unacceptable aspiration in the modern railway or otherwise world ?

[43066]

Not a negative way of looking at it. I shut down my laptop and I'm out in the garden two minutes later. That is a win for me. Everybody in my team aged 20-40 (or thereabouts) is keen to minimise office time and we are all still delivering big chunks of work.

80% of my time in an office would be spent staring at a screen.

Do you work in IT, by any chance?

That industry seems to attract people who are particularly predisposed to home/loan working.

 

[12LDA28C]

It is very unusual as a train driver to work fewer than eight hours in a day. The vast majority of shifts are between 8.45 and 9.15 in my experience. I don’t think that’ll change anytime soon.

Maybe at TOCs that have a 4-day week. Where I work driving turns can be anything from 5 hours to 10 hours, as per the Ts & Cs.

 

[exbrel]

When I worked for the railway in the 70s working Sundays was always sought after by the S&T staff, so a 6 day week was the norm. Work was always saved up to ensure they had their Sunday. I think for most it was essential income. Personally I value the time spent at home with wife and children and always hated working more than 5 days a week, but fortunately I could afford it. I have better things to do in life than work! Most construction workers seem to work Saturday mornings but the situation is complicated as for many the work comes in chunks and for bricklayers there can be a lot of off time in winter due to the weather. I don't think that working more than five days a week should be the norm for traffic staff, it is just not healthy and can lead to errors.

this mirrowed my situation in that time frame, Sundays were religiously worked as a norm, work was saved and on friday afternoons all materials were gathered for the Sunday... but i did not have to work if i didn't want to. Going on that though, if o/t was stopped by employing more people, and tech advances could cut the need, i saw recently on tv a driverless bus was being tested. What would happen then? railways always has been run on o/t, could it without?
I used to work with a union rep, and he always said "there should be no o/t, if people are on the dole".

 

[12LDA28C]

As a normal it would be good to really understand why Sunday is not in the working week.

Simply, because it would cost the TOCs too much money to employ the extra drivers required and it's cheaper to rely on overtime / Rest Day worked.

 

[Topological]

Because the railway industry has recruited people onto contracts specifically stating that Sundays are not part of the working week, because it suited them to do so. Now the government wants to muscle in and change that, largely for political reasons, to the detriment of the staff.

Note that many TOCs (when free from interference) have negotiated to bring Sundays inside the week.



Relatively few people work on Sundays, period. Even fewer do the shifts that traincrew are expected to the rest of the week, hence why many value having one day off they can depend on.

There’s also a tendency for people to complain (without irony) about people not being forced to work when it interferes with them enjoying their own free time!

Thank you again.

So the low capital cost answer is to make new contracts 4 from 7 and then let the old contracts leave the system. Again, as a normal it would surprise me that the government is not doing that. In other sectors there are older colleagues with excellent conditions, middle aged colleagues with good conditions and poor conditions for new entrants.

Given we are not on a 7 day railway it would presumably not be too long until there were sufficient workers at each grade (either new starters or who moved roles) to cover most positions on a Sunday.

Again I suspect the RMT would strike over such a proposal, but it may be harder for normals to understand/sympathise when the new 4 in 7 contracts would feel reasoable.

 

[43066]

Maybe at TOCs that have a 4-day week. Where I work driving turns can be anything from 5 hours to 10 hours, as per the Ts & Cs.

It’s an interesting debate, which boils down to a 7:00 hour average day versus 8:45.

For me the four day week always wins: it’s true that there are fewer snip turns but personally I’d much rather the extra 1:45 and an extra day off per week!

Longer jobs and an extra day to do overtime is also better for the money men.

 

[12LDA28C]

But the government isn't bringing Sundays inside the week. That would result in a different rest day in lieu as you say (either a true four day week with a different day off that week, or a week of rest days at some point in the roster). No, the proposal is that Sundays are "committed" or compulsory overtime. That does have the effect of making you work an extra day per week.

Indeed, I edited my post, although I would be happy for Sunday to be properly brought into the working week meaning an extra RD in the week instead of enforced overtime which is not pensionable. But of course, that isn't going to happen as it would cost the industry too much money.

 

[Bantamzen]

Do you work in IT, by any chance?

That industry seems to attract people who are particularly predisposed to home/loan working.

To be fair it is a job done as easily at home than in an office. Hell if you could get a decent connection it can be done halfway up a mountain. And some IT teams, mine for example might be spread all around the country or even the world.

 

[43066]

Thank you again.

So the low capital cost answer is to make new contracts 4 from 7 and then let the old contracts leave the system. Again, as a normal it would surprise me that the government is not doing that. In other sectors there are older colleagues with excellent conditions, middle aged colleagues with good conditions and poor conditions for new entrants.

Given we are not on a 7 day railway it would presumably not be too long until there were sufficient workers at each grade (either new starters or who moved roles) to cover most positions on a Sunday.

Again I suspect the RMT would strike over such a proposal, but it may be harder for normals to understand/sympathise when the new 4 in 7 contracts would feel reasoable.

Agreed. That’s exactly how my TOC handled it.

I highly doubt the RMT would strike over that, they’re in favour of Sundays inside and no overtime! It’s just a question of negotiating constructively, rather than the politically motivated imposition the current government is attempting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who mentioned car drivers?

So fatigue not black and white then. Are you going to regulate what people can and can’t do in their own time as well? The undertone of my sentence is I know what fatigues me more than you or anyone else therefore having a arbitrary limit is rather well, arbitrary.

Do you disagree with the use of tachographs for drivers of commercial road vehicles, then? It sounds like you do?

If not, why the inconsistency?

 

[Krokodil]

Thank you, it helps make it clearer.

On the one hand if you are saying work 4 days, but now one of those days in Sunday then I, as a normal, cannot see why that needs payments. The discussions above suggest that there has been adjustments made at certain TOCs that would be invalidated by just treating Sunday like any other day. I can see that has complicated things somewhat.

On the other hand, if it is simply because Sunday is Sunday and everyones salary would have to go up to have Sunday treated like any other day then I can see why there is reluctance on the government side.

Whilst I like the idea that Sunday is a special day, that ship sailed a long time ago for most.

Generally bringing Sundays inside the week has been accompanied by a salary uplift (and hence an increase in hourly rate). This is primarily an incentive to encourage staff to accept the new offer, particularly because they will be losing out on overtime. In theory you could bring Sundays inside without it.

That's not the main cost of bringing Sundays inside though. If you bring Sundays inside the existing 35 hour (or whatever) week, you're going to need extra staff because otherwise you're now trying to cover seven days worth of shifts with the same number of staff you covered six with - the only alternative is to cut the weekday service. These extra staff (we could be talking a 16% increase) will need recruiting, training, managing, uniforms, equipment, pensions etc. This is why it often worked out cheaper to pay existing staff an enhanced rate (often time-and-a-third) to work it as overtime (not pensionable), than it would cost to employ extra staff (pensionable).

Training in particular will be a big cost in the short term before going down to a lower level (but still 16% higher than it was before) as an ongoing cost to cover staff turnover. If you were a TOC on a seven year franchise, would you want to shell out to train an extra 16% staff in one go when you'll see little of the benefits before the end of the franchise? This is one of the main reasons why "Sundays outside" has persisted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair it is a job done as easily at home than in an office. Hell if you could get a decent connection it can be done halfway up a mountain. And some IT teams, mine for example might be spread all around the country or even the world.

It's a job better done at home in many cases.

As you say teams are all over the place (presently I'm working with teams in Bristol and Leeds, though it's been a lot more international than that in the past) and so centralising in an office doesn't always make sense. You tend to have a lot of Teams calls, for which the quiet environment at home is better than a noisy office. And most IT people do IT outside of work as well and so spend money on a good keyboard, mouse and monitor setup, what you get in offices is invariably inferior.

You usually, give or take COVID, do stuff like initial requirements workshops and go-live support on site, though, that's when you really get benefits from being there in person.

 

[cuccir]

A key element of any working pattern, in any industry, that is not one of (a) you chose, broadly, the hours you work or (b) fixed-working days, with or without optional overtime, is how rotas are done. What consideration do they give/are they able to give to preferences, how far in advance are they done, what sort of predictability do they contain, (how) do they account for the extra fatigue that irregular shift working can bring. The point might be quite banal, but the devil really is in the detail there - if the above are fair to staff, flexible and transparent then it can bring a lot of benefits to people. If they're poorly done, it can make working patterns a nightmare.

 

[12LDA28C]

Thank you again.

So the low capital cost answer is to make new contracts 4 from 7 and then let the old contracts leave the system. Again, as a normal it would surprise me that the government is not doing that.

I think you're failing to understand that if my Sunday was classed as overtime and it's now going to form part of my 35-hour working week (if Sundays were properly brought into the week) then I now need an extra day off in the week to compensate and so does everyone else who works a Sunday. Who covers my Wednesday which is now my day off?

Clearly the TOC would have to employ many more drivers to cover the shortfall - why would the Government want to finance that across the industry, at huge expense?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s a very negative way of looking at it. Spending your entire day staring into a computer screen and not interacting with anybody in the flesh isn’t natural or normal for a social species.

Quite a lot of the IT industry is to some measure autistic (the logical thought patterns predispose one to be good at it), and their needs in this regard differ somewhat from the neurotypical.

It also doesn’t necessarily lead to better work outcomes. Surprise surprise businesses are catching onto this; working from home is receding and people are increasingly being expected to go back to the office.

It is almost invariably, for IT, out-of-touch managers who have no clue how the job works who propose this. (See as a comparison railway managers who institute rosters that look good on paper but in practice never work). I've been there before.

FWIW I probably would go into an office daily except Fridays (one day at home is nice) if there was one within 30 minutes' bike ride or public transport journey (I hate car commuting) and it had an equivalent desk setup, though.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I dont think companies can 'insist' on unpaid overtime, Your hours of work should be defined in your contract of employment

I have had at least one job where my immediate manager’s contract was “hours commensurate with the role”. Needless to say I wasn’t that bothered about being promoted.

 

[12LDA28C]

It’s an interesting debate, which boils down to a 7:00 hour average day versus 8:45.

For me the four day week always wins: it’s true that there are fewer snip turns but personally I’d much rather the extra 1:45 and an extra day off per week!

Longer jobs and an extra day to do overtime is also better for the money men.

Absolutely agree. If I have to come to work it makes little odds if it's for 7 hours or 9 - I'm at work so I'll take the longer day in exchange for an extra day off per week, thanks.

 

[43066]

To be fair it is a job done as easily at home than in an office. Hell if you could get a decent connection it can be done halfway up a mountain. And some IT teams, mine for example might be spread all around the country or even the world.

I know what “working from home” meant when I used to do it: generally logging into my laptop and sending a couple of strategic emails, then lounging around in my boxers, ordering pizzas etc.

Generally I found that I worked harder in a setting where I was physically “at work”.

Quite a lot of the IT industry is to some measure autistic (the logical thought patterns predispose one to be good at it), and their needs in this regard differ somewhat from the neurotypical.

Agreed. This is why it isn’t reflective of other industries which work in a more collaborative/team based way.

 

[XIX7007177]

Personally, I would love 4 on 4 off. Twelve days off for four days leave.

 

[Krokodil]

Personally, I would love 4 on 4 off. Twelve days off for four days leave.

That would equate to a 3.5 day week. if you are contracted for 42 hour weeks your shifts will be 12 hours long (I think that some signal boxes work on this basis). If you are contracted for 35 hours your shifts will average 10 hours which means that fatigue becomes a risk. It could work on a 32 hour week which has long been an ASLEF aspiration but good luck getting the government to agree to that.

 

[Bantamzen]

I know what “working from home” meant when I used to do it: generally logging into my laptop and sending a couple of strategic emails, then lounging around in my boxers, ordering pizzas etc.

Generally I found that I worked harder in a setting where I was physically “at work”.

Not where I am sadly. I have workloads that are often time critical, and there's no dodging them! Whilst there are occasions where being in the office is helpful, frankly mine is usually full of managers shouting on Teams meetings over never ending PowerPoint presentations. It can actually be distracting, whereas at home I can just have some of my tunes going off in the background whilst I try to convince databases to give me their data, then sending it to managers to shout about on Teams calls...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not where I am sadly. I have workloads that are often time critical, and there's no dodging them! Whilst there are occasions where being in the office is helpful, frankly mine is usually full of managers shouting on Teams meetings over never ending PowerPoint presentations. It can actually be distracting, whereas at home I can just have some of my tunes going off in the background whilst I try to convince databases to give me their data, then sending it to managers to shout about on Teams calls...

To an extent it's open plan offices that are quite negative because of noise interruptions and the likes if you need to concentrate. We could move more towards US style cubicles or providing more meeting rooms with Teams calls banned on the open floor, I suppose.

One of the reasons people like home working is that most UK office environments are remarkably poorly designed for the work that is being done - they're just a massive room of desks in most cases.

 

[Bantamzen]

To an extent it's open plan offices that are quite negative because of noise interruptions and the likes if you need to concentrate. We could move more towards US style cubicles or providing more meeting rooms with Teams calls banned on the open floor, I suppose.

One of the reasons people like home working is that most UK office environments are remarkably poorly designed for the work that is being done - they're just a massive room of desks in most cases.

This is an option currently being explored at some of our sites. Personally I would certainly go in more often (I currently go in a couple of days a week) if the area I can book a desk in (we have no permanent ones at my site now) had more cubicles and less large swathes of open plan areas.

 

[Horizon22]

Because the railway industry has recruited people onto contracts specifically stating that Sundays are not part of the working week, because it suited them to do so. Now the government wants to muscle in and change that, largely for political reasons, to the detriment of the staff.

Note that many TOCs (when free from interference) have negotiated to bring Sundays inside the week.

I have to disagree - ASLEF wants them in the working week so I'd hardly say its "political reasons".

It would be better overall - in my opinion - if all operational grades had Sunday as a normal working day, with rosters rebuilt as required. This would require a short-term, one-off pay increase for those with contracts to the contrary. On the Sunday issue though the DfT (and Treasury) largely want to "have their cake and eat it".

In a modern, public transport world, I genuinely don't think people can complain if its no longer a confirmed Sunday off but a Saturday one week, then a Sunday & Monday, then a Wednesday. Rolling "# week" rosters are what train crew work anyway, so it's hardly an alien concept.

 

[12LDA28C]

It would be better overall - in my opinion - if all operational grades had Sunday as a normal working day, with rosters rebuilt as required. This would require a short-term, one-off pay increase for those with contracts to the contrary.

It would also require many more drivers to be employed, at quite a cost.

 

[Horizon22]

It would also require many more drivers to be employed, at quite a cost.

Probably yes. But as I said there's this "have cake and eat it policy" right now. It will either a) cost more or b) crew provision on Sunday will continue to be patchy at key points of the year.

 

[12LDA28C]

Probably yes. But as I said there's this "have cake and eat it policy" right now. It will either a) cost more or b) crew provision on Sunday will continue to be patchy at key points of the year.

Of course. The Government wants to force staff to work overtime on a Sunday but is not prepared to stump up the cost of bringing Sunday into the working week.

 

[mike57]

That’s a very negative way of looking at it. Spending your entire day staring into a computer screen and not interacting with anybody in the flesh isn’t natural or normal for a social species.

It also doesn’t necessarily lead to better work outcomes. Surprise surprise businesses are catching onto this; working from home is receding and people are increasingly being expected to go back to the office.

I would disagree, companies are trying to drag people back to the office, but there is a big push back, people dont want the time and expense of commuting, 2 hours a day and £60 a week in my case before I worked from home full time. In my industry there is a huge skills shortage, and remote position are usually filled without too much trouble, but positions with significant office attendance in the requirements are going unfilled, often for months at a time, and when eventually filled the quality tends to be lower.

The advantages of home work (beyond the expense and time for travel), I can have the working environment the way I want it, not a corporate happy medium that suits no one (thinking ventilation and temperature). I can have a radio on while working to help concentration. No stupid office politics and petty rules. No Micromanagement. I take a decent luchbreak and get exercise (do a 10 mile bike ride). Healthier diet (no junk food). No way I would go back to the office full time. If the issue was forced retirement would be a better option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would disagree, companies are trying to drag people back to the office, but there is a big push back, people dont want the time and expense of commuting, 2 hours a day and £60 a week in my case before I worked from home full time. In my industry there is a huge skills shortage, and remote position are usually filled without too much trouble, but positions with significant office attendance in the requirements are going unfilled, often for months at a time, and when eventually filled the quality tends to be lower.

The advantages of home work (beyond the expense and time for travel), I can have the working environment the way I want it, not a corporate happy medium that suits no one (thinking ventilation and temperature). I can have a radio on while working to help concentration. No stupid office politics and petty rules. No Micromanagement. I take a decent luchbreak and get exercise (do a 10 mile bike ride). Healthier diet (no junk food). No way I would go back to the office full time. If the issue was forced retirement would be a better option.

I'd be happy doing 2 days a week if the setup was such that it genuinely promoted quality work. So the things I'd like to see in the office would be:

• Decent sound deadening and single person meeting rooms so Teams calls aren't disruptive
• Provision of decent headsets for such calls
• Design of office to promote natural light (sitting under fluorescent glare causes eye strain)
• Decent aircon so it doesn't get stuffy
• 32" 4K monitor and quality keyboard and mouse as well as laptop stand (I use both displays)
• Height adjustable desk and quality chair (I'm tall; hunching over gives me headaches)
• Quality coffee machine with proper cups (our office to be fair does have this one)

I do like to change the scenery and enjoy a train ride (and I can mix it up by going Chiltern sometimes), but paying 40 quid to go and spend time in a worse quality environment is a very hard sell. It's unlikely I'll be in a position to gain from sitting with colleagues because we don't allocate people to projects in that way. I do however like socialising with people from our company so having a group of desks dedicated to our "sub company" would also be good.

 

[aavm]

Wont be long before drivers can get in on this working from home thing, and drive the train via a Teams call. With automation, could even "drive" several at the same time...

Seriously though, should be strict safety limits on how much overtime safety-critical people can do, covering length of shift, time off between shifts, minimum days off per month, and changing between early/lates fatigue. So to answer the original question, it should be the norm.