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Is a uniform fleet cheaper to operate than a mixed fleet?

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norbitonflyer

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Until the Networkers all the "new generation" EMUs were single sourced, all the PEP type (313 etc) and Mk 3 based (317, 455 etc) were all constructed by BREL and their predecessors. I

It does seem that only DMUs were the main area where competition was encouraged

The Mark 3 based dmus (Class 150 Sprinters) all came from one source too. It was only with sectorisation that there was much dual sourcing (Pacers, 23m Sprinters). Metro Cammell did build a couple of dmus to rival the class 150 (class 151) but didn't get a production order.

In the first generation dmu era, most EMUs were built by British Rail workshops, but there were exceptions, notably the Glasgow "Blue Trains", built by Pressed Steel Co (Class 303) and Cravens (Class 311)

Mark 1 hauled stock was built by a variety of private companies, as well as BR - BRCW, Charles Roberts, Cravens, GRCW, Metro-Cammell and Pressed Steel.
 
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hooverboy

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Yes, but as stated earlier, would windscreen wipers all be specified as to type, manufacturer etc, otherwise you will still get non-standard parts in an ostensibly standard fleet.
Windscreen wipers are a very very basic commodity,and there should be plently of spares on hand wherever the stock ends upWorst case should be you have 24hrs wait for a part to be sent from elsewhere in the Uk.Stuff like coupling systems on the other hand are the nuts and bolts of a unit,and there should be no reason whatsoever to have units that won't link up and communicate with one another,even as an emergency setup.

That is what puzzles me about stuff like the 156/9's not being able to operate with 170's,when normal 15x units can.There should be a spec already set out as to what gear will be used.
 

37424

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If we look at some recent orders there has been an element dual suppliers anyway but with different types of train ie Electric and Diesel which presents less of an issue than say a mixed Diesel fleet, and even with dual suppliers its still going to lead to a significant reduction in fleet types at such as Anglia etc, apart from TPE which seemed a bit of stupid procurement although I have seen it suggested elsewhere that the Dft insisted on dual suppliers for the TPE franchise.
 

Snow1964

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Going back to original question, some TOCs have effectively decided on a uniform fleet eg SWR new class 701. Not whole fleet (not changing mainline fleet), but completely new surburban fleet (and one type for every vehicle this franchise is acquiring, ignoring the reuse of 442s)

...... except it’s not uniform, there are 60 10-car trains, and 30 half length trains. Doesn’t make sense to standardise completely and end up wasting money running 10car trains on some branch lines
 

randyrippley

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Imagine if BR had single sourced on NBL, or MetroVick, or Clayton.........
Or if they'd only purchased Mirlees or Paxman diesels
As it was, standardising on Sulzer for the later type 4 use proved to be a mistake
 

43096

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Going back to original question, some TOCs have effectively decided on a uniform fleet eg SWR new class 701. Not whole fleet (not changing mainline fleet), but completely new surburban fleet (and one type for every vehicle this franchise is acquiring, ignoring the reuse of 442s)

...... except it’s not uniform, there are 60 10-car trains, and 30 half length trains. Doesn’t make sense to standardise completely and end up wasting money running 10car trains on some branch lines
It is standard equipment though. The cabs on the 5-car units are identical to those on the 10-car. I'm intrigued as to which "branch lines" these 5-car sets are for, though...
 

edwin_m

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The rolling stock manufacturer would want to supply their standard design. Maybe not too much of a problem with something as simple as a windscreen wiper but if a rolling stock manufacturer was forced to integrate some more complex subsystems then the result might be more cost and poorer reliability.

It was reported that the windscreens for the Brush and GEC Networkers, to a common specification, were sourced from the same manufacturer but to two different designs.
 

PupCuff

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Equally, what hasn't been considered is also the 'back office' stuff that doesn't get seen. Let's say we're a TOC who has catering and we've got two different fleets. Do fleet A and fleet B have the same combi ovens? If not, we need to do the risk assessments and operating instructions twice, potentially food cooking instructions too, one for each fleet. Each type of combi oven has different periodic maintenance requirements too, so the fleet teams have to write two sets of Vehicle Maintenance Instructions. We currently use a trolley to deliver the service, can the same one work on both fleets or do we need two separate designs of trolley? In any case, we'll need to ensure that the operating instructions for the trolley reflect how you do it on each fleet type, eg you have to park it in one place on one fleet but you can't park it in that place due to design of the other fleet.
One day the ops director of Speedy Trains decides that we're running fleet B down a route that fleet A have only ever run and says, 'Cuff, make it happen'. Fleet A you can dispatch from the back cab but fleet B, you can't, and at a number of locations on that route we've mandated that the conductor dispatches from the back cab. So I'd need to arrange PTI assessments for each of those locations to ensure that the conductors could safely dispatch the trains. Worst case scenario, I find out that they can't, so stop boards need moving for fleet B, but not fleet A. This might mean that the station dispatch staff need to do things differently too (eg positioning on the platform, use of CD/RA indicators), so they need to be briefed and trained on the differences between the two fleets. Meanwhile the planning team are scratching their heads and sharpening their train planning pencils, as only certain depots sign Fleet B so they need to ensure that the unit diagrams for fleet B tie up with the crew diagrams for the depots that sign them. The commercial teams will be asking things like, will the diagrams be interchangeable, and if so, do the seat numbers match up, otherwise we'll end up reserving seats that don't exist on one type of train.
Each fleet will need its own traction training course, so the person who's job it is to write the traction training for fleet A will now have to write and update another one for fleet B too.

A lot of what you'll see are the frontline things like training the drivers and conductors to work the different types of train, but there's a lot more 'management' stuff that goes into it as well, and a lot of it (like my example of the type of combi oven) isn't something you'd immediately consider.
 

Metal_gee_man

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2 or 3 different fleets, 2 or 3 different ROSCOs, 3 different leasing prices, 3 different weights resulting in 3 different track access charges & if you exclusively ran one type you haven't got the cost flexibilities and benefits a mixed fleet would bring.
 

GRALISTAIR

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One lot of training. One lot of spare parts. I don’t want to off thread but Southwest and Ryanair have the same business model. All Boeing 737. Yes lower cost. I can't help thinking in BR days everyone could drive a Class 47. I know it is not practical to have all fleets the same but at the moment there seem to be many. Great from an enthusiast point of view but capex and opex I am not too sure about.
 

Mikey C

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One lot of training. One lot of spare parts. I don’t want to off thread but Southwest and Ryanair have the same business model. All Boeing 737. Yes lower cost. I can't help thinking in BR days everyone could drive a Class 47. I know it is not practical to have all fleets the same but at the moment there seem to be many. Great from an enthusiast point of view but capex and opex I am not too sure about.
It's interesting that IAG had a fairly uniform fleet of Airbus A320 family narrowbodies across their airlines (British Airways, Iberia Vueling, Aer Lingus etc) but then last year chose to also buy some Boeing 737MAX aircraft, presumably the price discount from Boeing was enough to compensate for losing some of the commonality benefits
 

Energy

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It's interesting that IAG had a fairly uniform fleet of Airbus A320 family narrowbodies across their airlines (British Airways, Iberia Vueling, Aer Lingus etc) but then last year chose to also buy some Boeing 737MAX aircraft, presumably the price discount from Boeing was enough to compensate for losing some of the commonality benefits
I believe the 737 max order was only a letter of intent not an actual purchase or lease, this may have just been a way to bargain a cheaper price on the 777xs BA ordered but this is getting off topic.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Class 08 fleet huge. Class 47 fleet very large, class 37 and class 25 not too shabby. I don’t have a combine handy what is the largest fleet at the moment of unit or loco?
 

jopsuk

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Class 08 fleet huge. Class 47 fleet very large, class 37 and class 25 not too shabby. I don’t have a combine handy what is the largest fleet at the moment of unit or loco?
Got to be the Class 66 surely
 

Domh245

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Largest 'modern' fleet would definitely be the 66s (overlooking the slight variations between classes and operators, etc) with 455 built for the UK (and 100 more for other railways) although many of those have since been sent abroad (with a few coming in the opposite direction)

Unit wise, I'd think the 377s at 239 units would take it. Even discounting the last 34 as they are a pretty different spec to the earlier ones, most other fleets don't get above 150 units.
 

43096

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Largest 'modern' fleet would definitely be the 66s (overlooking the slight variations between classes and operators, etc) with 455 built for the UK (and 100 more for other railways) although many of those have since been sent abroad (with a few coming in the opposite direction)

Unit wise, I'd think the 377s at 239 units would take it. Even discounting the last 34 as they are a pretty different spec to the earlier ones, most other fleets don't get above 150 units.
It depends if you take Class or "design" as the class number allocation means some very similar units have got different class designations. If you take it more generically as Electrostar, you'd add in the 357s, 375s, 377s together as being essential very similar units which would give you 425 units. If we're lumping all the 66s in together (and there are variations within the class) you could probably add in the 376s, 378s, 379s and 387s as well to give a total of 655 sets.
 
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