AHBD
Member
Given the tiny luggage space in some trains, Is booking/reserving an extra seat for your luggage allowed?
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Is booking an extra seat for your luggage allowed?
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ANDREW_D_WEBB
Member
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- 21 Aug 2013
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Probably not.
Section 23 of the National Conditions of Travel actually limit passengers to three pieces of luggage each. Whilst this is generally not enforced as rigidly as weight limits on airlines it is still part of the agreement entered into when purchasing a ticket.
https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf
Section 23 of the National Conditions of Travel actually limit passengers to three pieces of luggage each. Whilst this is generally not enforced as rigidly as weight limits on airlines it is still part of the agreement entered into when purchasing a ticket.
https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf
Haywain
Veteran Member
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No, seats are for people not luggage.
What journey are you making and how much luggage are you bringing?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Traditionally it was allowed but I don't think it is in the present NRCoT.
‘Traditionally’ there were loads of luggage racks and trains were only F&S on rare occasions outside of SX commuting peaks.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Not sure how that's relevant to purchasing more than one seat
Most of them aren't now.
To be honest I'd be happy for it to be allowed provided the full fare is paid for each seat. Most airlines will do it.
Haywain
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It certainly hasn't been allowed in the last 25 years.
AHBD
Member
How / where is this rule expressed?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It would have to be specifically allowed. As things stand tickets entitle a person to a seat; if it isn't a person it shouldn't be on one.
AHBD
Member
Could it be under one(reserved) seat then, with nothing on seat?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If a seat doesn't have a human sitting in it it is available for another human to take it. If any luggage or animal is placed such that it prevents that, it needs to be moved.
styles
Member
No, you can't make an extra reservation for luggage.
https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf
Arguably you could make your one reservation, sit in an unreserved seat next to your reserved one, and put your luggage on the reserved one if you wanted to be pedantic about what the conditions of travel say. But you're not going to win any arguments with passengers or with a guard by arguing that your bag should remain on the seat because it's your one and only one reserved seat, while you're sat in an unreserved one.
And if the guard wanted to point you to a condition on your travel:
It's pretty easy to argue that luggage on seats, especially large luggage or when the train is filling up and humans want the seats, isn't carried in a suitable manner.
That's before you get onto your obligation to follow safety instructions from railway staff.
https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf
Arguably you could make your one reservation, sit in an unreserved seat next to your reserved one, and put your luggage on the reserved one if you wanted to be pedantic about what the conditions of travel say. But you're not going to win any arguments with passengers or with a guard by arguing that your bag should remain on the seat because it's your one and only one reserved seat, while you're sat in an unreserved one.
And if the guard wanted to point you to a condition on your travel:
It's pretty easy to argue that luggage on seats, especially large luggage or when the train is filling up and humans want the seats, isn't carried in a suitable manner.
That's before you get onto your obligation to follow safety instructions from railway staff.
By rigid enforcement of luggage on seats. You can’t buy a seat for your luggage; it has to go in the rack.
AHBD
Member
Thanks
So in other words, although the NRCoT don't explicitly prohibit you from putting luggage and other personal belongings on seats, they could be interpreted to mean that.
And in BR days at less busy times people would often put bags and other belongings such as coats and jackets on an unoccupied seat if there was one alongside or opposite them. It was a way of discouraging others from invading your space unnecessarily. Even in those days guards would sometimes make announcements asking people not to do so on busy trains, though.
You can still sometimes get away with it today, especially in First Class if you have a bay of two or a pair of unidirectional seats to yourself, but there's less chance of it these days with more people travelling.
This potentially warrants a separate thread, but I believe that in some countries, such as Switzerland, you can actually be charged for a second ticket if you put any of your belongings on an unoccupied seat.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Some guards in the UK threaten or do it, but I don't think there's actually a legal basis behind that action, it's similar to charging someone a fare for a longer journey they haven't made if they board at a set down only stop.
styles
Member
Yes, basically. Quite a few bits of the conditions of travel are worded broadly enough that they could deal with a wide range of, let's say, undesirable behaviours.
duffield
Established Member
My rule of thumb is if there are still free *pairs* of airline seats and/or whole free tables, I put my (very clean) bag on the seat next to me, if this no longer applies, I remove it. I've never been asked to move it by the guard when I do use it. I'm a bit of a fiddler and often taking things in and out of my bag so it would be daft not to make use of a seat which no-one needs.
As an aside I think in general it's weird and creepy to sit next to someone in an airline seat when there are clearly visible vacant pairs of seats (though I can think of very specific circumstances where this does not apply and it's totally understandable).
As an aside I think in general it's weird and creepy to sit next to someone in an airline seat when there are clearly visible vacant pairs of seats (though I can think of very specific circumstances where this does not apply and it's totally understandable).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
FWIW in my eyes those circumstances are:
1. Someone with a reserved seat is ALWAYS entitled to sit in that seat. If the other person doesn't like that it's on them to move, not the person who reserved.
2. It's a priority seat and the person requires it for whatever reason (be that medical or legroom).
duffield
Established Member
Agreed, plus I would add to that circumstances such as a lone woman in a carriage mostly full of drunken male sports fans on their way home, who might feel safer sitting next to another lone woman rather than in a free seat pair amongst those fans.
Kite159
Veteran Member
It's one thing for EMR to say that, it's another thing for them to actually attempt to enforce it (other than at St Pancras, but when trains are only called minutes before departure it's normally an Euston style free for all)
duffield
Established Member
Exactly, without some form of supervised boarding, if you've put some luggage in the end racks, for example, they have no idea how much of it belongs to which passenger. Which is just as well since this is a very stingy allowance for someone heading for (say) Luton Airport or Eurostar where something like two larger and one small bag doesn't sound unreasonable (e.g. suitcase, large laptop bag, small bag for at-seat requirements).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I suppose 222s are particularly bad for luggage space as the overheads are utterly useless. Lumo probably has more space per person than a 222 does.
Surprised TOCs are mucking with this now though. I'd have thought GBR would likely standardise on the LNER policy of one big, one medium and one small (if they are going to start telling women they can't bring their handbag Ryanair style then there are going to be crew assaults a-plenty, I'm afraid, so the LNER policy makes more sense**). But to be honest the piece concept makes no sense for trains - it is easier to stow say three small pieces of luggage than one very large one*. While nobody would actually enforce it, a policy of "max 30kg distributed between as many bags as you like provided you can carry them all at once" might be a reasonable place to head, plus a maximum overall size for each bag.
Or thinking on is this more about the 810s - have they made an error with those and created a layout that aside from the big overheads has almost no luggage space? If so that's a huge mistake, and in that case a policy of allowing more smaller bags and discouraging very large ones would make more sense as those can go overhead.
* I note National Express are sensible enough to realise this, offering a choice between two cabin size bags or one bigger one.
** Or is the policy actually the same and they don't consider a handbag, crossbody or a bag of butties from M&S "luggage" but rather refreshments/clothing? For women a handbag or crossbody is basically their pockets. Ryanair is finiticky about this but I just can't see a TOC being so and would be genuinely concerned about staff assaults were it attempted.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Most people flying from Luton will be hand luggage only these days - it's pretty much entirely a low cost operation there.
I'm kind of intrigued who's taking lots of luggage on EMR - with a maximum journey time of about 2 hours on the mainline most people are day-trippers with a laptop bag or small rucksack. I wonder if it's aimed at reining things in on the Skeggy 170s? (170s also have uselessly small overheads). Might also be so fewer bags end up in the wheelchair area which is increasingly seen as unacceptable, though again the piece concept which encourages you to bring one big bag rather than several small ones is going to make that worse, surely?
Western Sunset
Established Member
I've heard of famous classical musicians booking an extra seat for their instrument on an aeroplane, such as for their cello, to keep it safe. So does all the above info suggest they couldn't do the same on a (British) train?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's not official policy to be able to do that, no. There's less cause to do so on a train, though, as on a plane it's an alternative to the risk of putting it in the hold.
styles
Member
One significant difference there is paying for that second seat on a plane though, with specific seat reservations (even if randomly-allocated) being compulsory.
Another being that on planes you are required to be secured into the seat, and airlines will insist on instruments being secured into seats also; whereas on trains, no such requirement, but there is a safety risk of having bulky items on seats in the event of an incident.
Lastly though, the main thing preventing this is merely the contract you enter when buying a train ticket. The conditions of travel only permit one reservation per passenger, so even if you paid for a second seat and obtained a second seat reservation, there is no second passenger there to use it. Also the conditions regarding suitable storage, and on the freedom given to rail staff such as guards to give safety orders to passengers which they basically must follow. If National Rail/Rail Delivery Group had the will, they could amend the conditions of travel to permit reservations to be made for luggage on seats if they wanted. Some countries will have more relaxed policies on this, and some countries like Japan have services where you can book a seat with dedicated luggage storage, which is another option.
As the conditions of travel currently stand, you can't make an additional seat reservation for luggage; but there's nothing stopping those conditions being changed if those in charge felt it was a good idea (which in all honesty, I don't personally think it is!)
Western Sunset
Established Member
Just had another thought. If a VIP is travelling on a train, are additional seats booked around them to be kept free for security purposes? Or could one end up sitting next to the King or PM if the train was full? I know, back in the day, compartments could be reserved for VIPs, or accompanied prisoners...