Is it a mistake for FTPE to order the 397 / 802 / MK5 trains?

[jzw95]

Sunday? Engineering works possibly sent some services via Huddersfield/Leeds to Edinburgh, it happens occasionally

Yes, it was last Sunday I saw this:

<http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N70581/2017/04/16>

For the benefit of those who see this after the data's no longer available, here's the screen capture of the above URL:

 

[Class 170101]

It wouldn't have appeared on journey planner for journeys beyond Newcastle I doubt as the 15:30 Edinburgh to London overtakes it at Newcastle.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

With the recent engineering works over the easter weekend north of carlisle, Ordsall Chord works and near Leeds, in order to maintain anglo-scottish connections and due to the reduced capacity thru CFD some TPE LIV-NCL services (technically diverted Scarboroughs as they used the XX:22 path via WAC) ran thru as 6 car to EDB. This was an alternate hours extension with the opposite hours splitting at YRK with NCL and MBR portions.

 

[Bungle965]

With the recent engineering works over the easter weekend north of carlisle, Ordsall Chord works and near Leeds, in order to maintain anglo-scottish connections and due to the reduced capacity thru CFD some TPE LIV-NCL services (technically diverted Scarboroughs as they used the XX:22 path via WAC) ran thru as 6 car to EDB. This was an alternate hours extension with the opposite hours splitting at YRK with NCL and MBR portions.

Do you know if the through services to Edinburgh were well used?
Sam

 

[andyb2706]

No the SRA made a mistake by awarding a franchise which ordered 185s. Given the reduced seating capacity on the 185s they should have made a choice of whether to go for 3 cars with single doors or 4 cars with double doors, with the option to lengthen trains in both cases.

Well the original plan was to add an extra fourth car to the 185's but the government put a stop to it.

I do like the 185, but as has been previously stated TPE is changing from a commuter model to an inter city model of operating. Plus the 185 is expensive to run due to the weight of the train per car per mile that a TOC has to pay access charge to Network Rail due to the damage it causes to the track. That is probably one reason no one else has ordered the Desiro in the diesel form.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

When Ordsall is complete TPE will be abandoning LPY, WAC and BWD and running all services via the moss. St Helens Jn and NLW effectively replaces WAC and BWD on the SCA services (I would argue NLW gives better connections to/from North Wales which I see a number of punters using, pity we dont stop there now but for late running Ill try and get a SSO) while St Helens Ctl is added to the LIV-Scot WCML workings. Northern will then transfer the MIA-LIV services to replace the cheshire lines stops and path which then avoids a service crossing the station throat at MAN, frees up a path for the MIA-NCL thru Ordsall chord and the second LIV-Scot ECML which essentially extenda the existing LIV-NCL. Wether these serve any of the northumberland/Lothian coast stations remains to be seen, personally I think there should be a NCL-EDB stopper to better serve these stations.

 

[northwichcat]

Well the original plan was to add an extra fourth car to the 185's but the government put a stop to it.

I do like the 185, but as has been previously stated TPE is changing from a commuter model to an inter city model of operating. Plus the 185 is expensive to run due to the weight of the train per car per mile that a TOC has to pay access charge to Network Rail due to the damage it causes to the track. That is probably one reason no one else has ordered the Desiro in the diesel form.

But even the 185s with 4 cars would be inadequate now. If we had 4 car 444 equivalents or 5 car 185s they could probably last until Manchester to York is wired, maybe supplemented with a few bi-modes.

 

[northwichcat]

When Ordsall is complete TPE will be abandoning LPY, WAC and BWD and running all services via the moss. St Helens Jn and NLW effectively replaces WAC and BWD on the SCA services (I would argue NLW gives better connections to/from North Wales which I see a number of punters using, pity we dont stop there now but for late running Ill try and get a SSO) while St Helens Ctl is added to the LIV-Scot WCML workings. Northern will then transfer the MIA-LIV services to replace the cheshire lines stops and path which then avoids a service crossing the station throat at MAN, frees up a path for the MIA-NCL thru Ordsall chord and the second LIV-Scot ECML which essentially extenda the existing LIV-NCL. Wether these serve any of the northumberland/Lothian coast stations remains to be seen, personally I think there should be a NCL-EDB stopper to better serve these stations.

TPE will stop at Morepth only.

 

[AM9]

When Ordsall is complete TPE will be abandoning LPY, WAC and BWD and running all services via the moss. St Helens Jn and NLW effectively replaces WAC and BWD on the SCA services (I would argue NLW gives better connections to/from North Wales which I see a number of punters using, pity we dont stop there now but for late running Ill try and get a SSO) while St Helens Ctl is added to the LIV-Scot WCML workings. Northern will then transfer the MIA-LIV services to replace the cheshire lines stops and path which then avoids a service crossing the station throat at MAN, frees up a path for the MIA-NCL thru Ordsall chord and the second LIV-Scot ECML which essentially extenda the existing LIV-NCL. Wether these serve any of the northumberland/Lothian coast stations remains to be seen, personally I think there should be a NCL-EDB stopper to better serve these stations.

Although I could guess a few of them, it would make the post easier to read if there weren't so many unexplained abbreviations. Great for timetable planners and ticket clerks though!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

TPE will stop at Morepth only.

Firsts London services are stopping at Morpeth when (if) that finally starts...

Not sure on TPE stopping there. Havent been told we are, havent been told we arent either. You may well know something I dont!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Do you know if the through services to Edinburgh were well used?
Sam

I worked one as far as newcastle. Was rammed MAN-YRK, dead from about DAR onwards...

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Although I could guess a few of them, it would make the post easier to read if there weren't so many unexplained abbreviations. Great for timetable planners and ticket clerks though!

Lol, they are all station short codes. (Except one, SSO- Special Stop Order) Saves my thumbs a bit of excessive screen tapping. Thumbs are too big for my screen anyway....

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They are already running non stop Lime St - Victoria, have been for some time.

That's there to meet the DfT commitment of a 32-minute journey between Liverpool and Manchester after the Chat Moss line upgrade (Northern Hub).
TPE has the option in the new franchise agreement of where to put the intermediate stops on its two future services.

 

[northwichcat]

Firsts London services are stopping at Morpeth when (if) that finally starts...

Not sure on TPE stopping there. Havent been told we are, havent been told we arent either. You may well know something I dont!

From the press release which accompanied the franchise annoucement

13 new destinations served including St Helens (Junction) and Morpeth added to the TransPennine Express network from 2017 and 2019, respectively. Both gaining new hourly direct links to Edinburgh, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle and York.

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/news/2016/04/new-transpennine-express-franchise-launches/

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I can't help thinking the whole of tpe could run with a standardized fleet of class 80x iep or similar rather than a mixed fleet.
Nice to get the opportunity to ride on quiet hauled coaches though.
Kj

except of course Hitachi couldn't / wouldn't promise delivery in time for the right price ...

 

[Bornin1980s]

Well the original plan was to add an extra fourth car to the 185's but the government put a stop to it.

I do like the 185, but as has been previously stated TPE is changing from a commuter model to an inter city model of operating. Plus the 185 is expensive to run due to the weight of the train per car per mile that a TOC has to pay access charge to Network Rail due to the damage it causes to the track. That is probably one reason no one else has ordered the Desiro in the diesel form.

I think the fourth car was replaced by a government mandated new train proposal, which still restricted the unit length to three cars, and didn't even list Siemens as a bidder (making the new units incompatible with the 185s). In the end, that project was abandoned entirely. I think for 185's were in many ways a mistake, but this would have been an even bigger one.

Anyway, if TPE changes from a commuter model to an InterCity model, where do all the commuters go?

 

[Nean]

Anyway, if TPE changes from a commuter model to an InterCity model, where do all the commuters go?

TPE are picking up quite a few of the stopping stations between Manchester and Leeds from what I've read, which is where most of the commuting troubles already seem to happen (mostly Huddersfield<>Leeds in my experience).

 

[northwichcat]

TPE are picking up quite a few of the stopping stations between Manchester and Leeds from what I've read, which is where most of the commuting troubles already seem to happen (mostly Huddersfield<>Leeds in my experience).

They'll be 4 intercity services an hour between Manchester Victoria and York using new Hitachi and CAF trains. They'll also be two 'semi-fasts' an hour between Manchester Piccadilly and Leeds using existing 185s.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Today's RAIL

 

[AM9]

Lol, they are all station short codes. (Except one, SSO- Special Stop Order) Saves my thumbs a bit of excessive screen tapping. Thumbs are too big for my screen anyway....

Many have been pulled up here for using one or two station short codes, but you have put so many in that post that it just doesn't make sense. We should all observe the forum rule, printed here for your convenience and to save your thumbs:

"Please remember many members do not understand rail “jargon” (including acronyms, station codes and specialist terms). Such terms should be correctly defined the first time they are used;"

 

[Clansman]

All these artists impressions coming out from left right and centre. It would be nice if there was an official one as the amount of impressions that are emerging now is just rediculous.

 

[BMIFlyer]

All these artists impressions coming out from left right and centre. It would be nice if there was an official one as the amount of impressions that are emerging now is just rediculous.

I've seen the real cab / front end bodyshell mock up in Spain and it's the same as pictured in that rail magazine article. You'll see the real train late this year when it is built I'd expect.

 

[Bornin1980s]

^Got any pictures?

 

[BMIFlyer]

^Got any pictures?

Yes, but I'm not allowed to show them, hence why I haven't posted them.

 

[Clansman]

Yes, but I'm not allowed to show them, hence why I haven't posted them.

CAF's policy on media is a pain in the backside. A close friend of the family took photo's of an assembled Mk5 coach for the Sleeper, but I was restricted to go any further with them.

No idea why they're so tight lipped on this sort of stuff to be honest.

 

[CosherB]

CAF's policy on media is a pain in the backside. A close friend of the family took photo's of an assembled Mk5 coach for the Sleeper, but I was restricted to go any further with them.

No idea why they're so tight lipped on this sort of stuff to be honest.

Probably because they want to control their own media output, which is not unreasonable. Uncontrolled leaks via enthusiasts must be their stuff of nightmares.

 

[Des Iroman]

All these artists impressions coming out from left right and centre. It would be nice if there was an official one as the amount of impressions that are emerging now is just rediculous.

The image shown in Rail is a TPE-issued image supplied by the designers of the train. How much more official would you like??

 

[Clansman]

The image shown in Rail is a TPE-issued image supplied by the designers of the train. How much more official would you like??

I never knew it was issued by TPE themselves. But my point still stands. Type in any class of train built or in the process of being built for the past 3 years and I guarantee you will see more than 1 variation of "impressions" on them. All I'm saying is a bit of accuracy would be nice

 

[jopsuk]

I never knew it was issued by TPE themselves. But my point still stands. Type in any class of train built or in the process of being built for the past 3 years and I guarantee you will see more than 1 variation of "impressions" on them. All I'm saying is a bit of accuracy would be nice

That's because the designs go through multiple revisions. The people producing the imagery can only go on what the latest technical specifications they have look like.

 

[Clansman]

That's because the designs go through multiple revisions. The people producing the imagery can only go on what the latest technical specifications they have look like.

Well some of these designers must be waaaayyyy off then if they're basing their designs from the specifications set out.