Is it just me or do certain stock feel more computerised? If so what would you say makes a train feel more computerised?

[Silent]

I think the S stock, I use it on the Metropolitan Line mostly has a very computerised feel to me. I know part of this is probably just psychological. The 2009 stock despite being automated doesn't feel as computerised to me or it feels more like other tube train stocks. I know walk through carriages automatically add to the computerised feel it removes passengers from the outer sounds of the train touching the rail and no air, without the HVAC system naturally flows into the train. But I think part of what adds to what I see as a more computerised feeling I think is how the Metropolitan S Stock trains can be janky or don't just accelerate smoothly and would noticeably, not sharply tough, stop accelerating or slow down and then accelerate.

I also think it's the interior, having all the motor components able to mostly fit under the floor psychologically just adds to the computerised feeling for me. I haven't used the class 378's for some time but I think the smoother acceleration would make it feel less computerised to an S Stock, although the 710's with the quiet motors and all the equipment fitting below the floor also feel computerised to me.

I was also thinking maybe something mechanical, for example how the motors work, or the wheels move, may make it feel more computerised. I know the 1972 stock doesn't always accelerate smoothly, but unlike the s stock, when it doesn't, there is some feedback by a sound such as a pop or clicking.

I'm not even sure if computerised is the right word. I think it is, somehow the train feels less mechanical.

 

[merseydrew]

the 1972 stock feels very clunky by comparison

 

[Silent]

the 1972 stock feels very clunky by comparison

But in a natural way that you can feel the mechanical parts working

 

[ChristopherJ]

The reason these trains feel computerised is because they're... err... computerised.

Every Underground and Overground train built from the late 90s / early 00s onwards uses a Train Management System (TMS/TCMS), which is an onboard computer.

 

[3141]

I don't think of any Underground stock as being computerised, or more or less so than others. But the relative absence of smooth acceleration, and frequent braking and then accelerating again, is the result of computerised signalling systems driving the train. I notice that most in Victoria Line trains, which is the opposite of your perception.

 

[Silent]

The reason these trains feel computerised is because they're... err... computerised.

Every Underground and Overground train built from the late 90s / early 00s onwards uses a Train Management System (TMS/TCMS), which is an onboard computer.

Yeah but what creates the computerised feeling.

I don't think of any Underground stock as being computerised, or more or less so than others. But the relative absence of smooth acceleration, and frequent braking and then accelerating again, is the result of computerised signalling systems driving the train. I notice that most in Victoria Line trains, which is the opposite of your perception.

Maybe in that sense the 2009 stock feels computerised. I think the fact it has separated cars makes the mechanical sounds easier to hear though.

 

[43OO4]

Yeah but what creates the computerised feeling.

Your brain.

I can guarantee you it's only train nerds who care about if a train feels "computerised" (whatever the hell that means).

It'll be in various things, such as design cues, timings of certain things, even how clean the trains are. But ultimately, this is purely a subjective thread.

 

[Silent]

Your brain.

I can guarantee you it's only train nerds who care about if a train feels "computerised" (whatever the hell that means).

It'll be in various things, such as design cues, timings of certain things, even how clean the trains are. But ultimately, this is purely a subjective thread.

I had a friend who isn’t a train nerd agree with the computerised feeling of a Met Line train but in his words it was more like the train doesn’t feel like a real train.

This isn’t an opinion of dislike just opinion and curiosity.

 

[D365]

Yeah but what creates the computerised feeling.

Electronically controlled traction systems in the 92TS onwards, compared to electro-mechanical in 72TS/73TS.

 

[Silent]

I was wondering if a better description might be that older trains have a more tactile feeling in regards to how they move.

 

[StephenHunter]

I was wondering if a better description might be that older trains have a more tactile feeling in regards to how they move.

They also have different sounds, especially at speed. Their shape can be a factor in that, as the compression of the air has a Doppler effect.

 

[announcements]

I had a friend who isn’t a train nerd agree with the computerised feeling of a Met Line train but in his words it was more like the train doesn’t feel like a real train.

I've heard the S stock described as "plasticy" due to their sterile nature, and indeed abundance of plastic!

Subjectively, I am not sure I would use the term "computerised" except to describe the train controls themselves. I wonder if you are alluding to the train as a whole feeling like it has been 3D printed?

 

[Recessio]

I was wondering if a better description might be that older trains have a more tactile feeling in regards to how they move.

This might be the difference between the old DC motors, which used mechanical cams that can clunk in during acceleration, and more modern stock which uses AC motors that are electronically controlled by computers.

 

[starlight73]

maybe the kind of motoring sound they make as well (high pitched, thin and consistent) compared with older electric trains (lower pitched, heavy and as someone mentioned about the 1972 stock, unpredictable and noisy)

 

[Silent]

The pitch of the dc motor sounds more satisfying to me, more organic. AC motors like the 96 stock can sound more interesting though. I don't use planes much but a stopped 2009 tube stock sound reminds me a bit of an aeroplane. I think an S stock in comparison is much quieter when stopped at a station or maybe I just haven't noticed the S stocks sound.

 

[Silent]

Something else that I think makes s stock feel computerised to me, more than other stock. Occasionally the door lights inside would not work properly and stay on even when the door is closed. Yesterday an s8 stock had one carraige light that was white instead of orange like the other carriages. With other stock I don’t seem to notice this stuff. It creates a glitchy feeling I think because the stuff is still working however is not working in the intended way. With the 09 stock I think I use it in a rapid rush, it the service style of the Victoria line is so fast that if the trains had similar glitches it would be easier to miss.

So in a sense most other stock doesn’t have enough electronic visual information to create the computerised feel to me. For example if an outer carriage light wasn’t working on a 96 stock it would be off and I would just assume the light wasn’t working. There wouldn’t be a white light instead of something.

 

[AM9]

The pitch of the dc motor sounds more satisfying to me, more organic. AC motors like the 96 stock can sound more interesting though. I don't use planes much but a stopped 2009 tube stock sound reminds me a bit of an aeroplane. I think an S stock in comparison is much quieter when stopped at a station or maybe I just haven't noticed the S stocks sound.

Only a non-technical train enthusiast would think about trains (one of the least organic of everyday encounters) has a 'satisfying more organic sound'. Electric trains, particularly London underground stock has had a variety of technologies in it's long history. My memories extend to the '50s when there was a range of traction in everyday use, typically:

the basic DC motored setup with contactors doing the resistor bank changes, - a low whine from standstill where the pinion drive teeth engaging could be heard with a steadily rising tone until it became a mid-pitched 'whirr', interspersed with clicks and clacks from the contactors, (especially the series to parallel changeover).​

​

the low smooth droning of the metadyne O and P stock on the SSL (sub surface lines) services which in its time offered a technically very advanced form of stepless motor control.​

the tick-tick ticking of the camshaft control resistor stepping of the 1938, 1959/60 and later tube stock and most post war SSL trains.​

​

The main difference between the trains of those days and current stock (except the metadyne kitted ones) was the silence whilst they were standing at a signal or in a station (once the compressors had recharged the reserviours after use). However, all of them had a level of traction automation whilst running as the stepping was ultimately controlled by the current and motor speed limiters to ensure that the motors were running within their designed limits. That applied to the then still running 'standard' tube stock built between 1923 and 1935.​

​

Electronic traction control was the start of the change and the 92 stock on the Central line had sepex motors with GTO which gave the motors a smoother control with more torque (unfortunate for the nose hung brackets), and like most modern stock, there isn't the level of pinion noise that the old DC setups had. The use of power electronics did herald the almost continuous background sound of cooling fans which makes modern stock seem 'busier', especially as they run for longer to cope with the rising temperatures across the tunnel network.

Interestingly, the sound of our latest washing machine reminds me of the latest generation of LU tock, e.g. the S series on the SSLs. It must be the electro-rheostatic braking where the motor decelerated the train under load.
All of these electronic sytems, traction, braking, air pressure, are more automatic in their own right and computer functions are more to co-ordinate and optimise their operation for performance and safety, but that isn't really something that passengers 'feel', or hear, but they probably would know if they weren't working.

 

[boiledbeans2]

[..] Occasionally the door lights inside would not work properly and stay on even when the door is closed. Yesterday an s8 stock had one carraige light that was white instead of orange like the other carriages.
[...]For example if an outer carriage light wasn’t working on a 96 stock it would be off and I would just assume the light wasn’t working. There wouldn’t be a white light instead of something.

I know you mention door light inside, but you also discuss external orange lights and white lights. I'm not sure if you are referring to the external orange and white lights, which have different purposes?

S-Stock door lights

I’ve noticed whilst observing and riding on S-Stock in London over the past week, as well as there being a yellow light to indicate door release, there’s also a white light which lights up above the yellow one on certain trains. Can anyone clarify what it’s for and what purpose it serves?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[ashley84]

I was on a 195 the other day where one of the screens which shows which side the doors are to open, consistently indicated the wrong direction/ opposite to all the others. That computer had been programmed incorrectly..

 

[Silent]

I know you mention door light inside, but you also discuss external orange lights and white lights. I'm not sure if you are referring to the external orange and white lights, which have different purposes?

S-Stock door lights

I’ve noticed whilst observing and riding on S-Stock in London over the past week, as well as there being a yellow light to indicate door release, there’s also a white light which lights up above the yellow one on certain trains. Can anyone clarify what it’s for and what purpose it serves?

www.railforums.co.uk

Yeah I know they have different purpose. But I got an s8 train and all the carriages had the external orange light on except for one which had a white light. I don’t usually see this on other s8’s I travel on.

Internally too sometimes the inner door lights wouldn’t work perfectly as in one set of doors would just have the light constantly on.

 

[Western Sunset]

I do enjoy the Bakerloo Line time warp..

 

[xtmw]

Yeah I know they have different purpose. But I got an s8 train and all the carriages had the external orange light on except for one which had a white light. I don’t usually see this on other s8’s I travel on.

Internally too sometimes the inner door lights wouldn’t work perfectly as in one set of doors would just have the light constantly on.

In a CBTC zone all S Stock trains are enabled to display a white light when they are ready to depart

 

[Silent]

In a CBTC zone all S Stock trains are enabled to display a white light when they are ready to depart

This was at Preston Road a non cbtc area

 

[xtmw]

Is it possible you have mistaken this for a dark blue light? This light indicates the 'de-icing' facilities have been switched on

 

[Silent]

I remember it being white light I think and that carriage didn't have the amber light whilst the rest did. Maybe it might have been blue as it was at night but then if it's a de-icing carriage would it be normal for the amber light to not go on when the train is stopped at a platform.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Was your sighting recent or did it pre date the CBTC roll-out? Door light behaviour on S stock was different when first introduced.

 

[Silent]

Recent like literally last week in a non cbtc area

 

[trainJam]

On the S Stock, why are the bodyside indicator lights delayed and when the doors shut, why don't they immediately extinguish?
On most other UK trains, it happens almost instantly.

As for the thread title, I would regard the Jubilee/Northern/Victoria line in ATO feels the most "computerised", with little variation between "drivers". Computerised in driving style.

The Bakerloo is less "computerised" in the electronics sense.

What I like about the Victoria line, even though the stock is new, is that I have sometimes seen the doors open a few moments before coming to a complete stand.

 

[Silent]

Yep I get what you mean. I think you mean computerised by how the train ride feels.


I think visually though the s stock looks more computerised but maybe because of more electronic visual information.

Victoria Line opens doors early I assume for slightly quicker dwell times.

 

[Dstock7080]

On the S Stock, why are the bodyside indicator lights delayed and when the doors shut, why don't they immediately extinguish?
On most other UK trains, it happens almost instantly.

They are software driven and not hard wired, as the cab ‘doors closed’ indicator is.
Therefore it is possible in non-CBTC areas to see a train starting off with the external lights still extinguishing.