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Is it normal to hear AC hum inside trains?

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O L Leigh

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I did an experiment today with a 314 and a 318 and I realised why I have never noticed AC hum on anything but a 314 - on the 318 I sat right in the middle under the pantograph and the buzzing snarling sound was really loud. Yet I tried sitting the same place on a 314 and it was quieter than it would be at the front.

Not quite. That's how you know the sound is not made by AC power.

If you sit under the pan you are as close to 25kV AC as you are ever likely to get. It comes down from the pan through the High Tension (HT) cable in the pillar that you describe, and then heads directly for the transformer. This is in the same place on both a Cl314 and a Cl318. So if it was the transformer or the AC power supplying the train, you would expect a Cl314 centre car to be much noisier.

However, as I have been trying to say, the noise you have been describing doesn't come from the transformer or the AC power running down to it, but from the traction equipment. On a Cl318 this is under the centre car, but Cl314's have them under the outer cars instead.

So the moral of the story is that if you want a quiet ride head for one of the trailers, as the motor coaches really are the preserve of those who love the buzz of an electric train.

It wasn't even a uniform sound but rather a BBZZZZZzzzzZZZZZzzzZZZ.

That sort of modulation could be just down to the driver playing with the power notches or because the WSP has detected wheelslip and is dipping the power to compensate.

I can't wait for my camera so I can get some onboard videos!

Prepare to be disappointed. I have yet to find a recording device that can faithfully capture and recreate the sounds you hear live everyday. However, I wish you all the best with it because I also happen to quite like the sounds some of our Cl315's make.

The second batch of units that got GEC equipment rather than Brush equipment (315842-861) and have a couple of audible differences that mark them out. The first is the "clunk" you mentioned before when you take power from a stand, while the other is the Traction Interlock Relay that closes with a really loud "clack". I notice from comparing details on The Railway Centre that the Cl314's are similarly split into two batches, with 314207-216 appearing to have the same traction package as the second batch of Cl315's.

O L Leigh
 
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If you sit under the pan you are as close to 25kV AC as you are ever likely to get. It comes down from the pan through the High Tension (HT) cable in the pillar that you describe, and then heads directly for the transformer. This is in the same place on both a Cl314 and a Cl318. So if it was the transformer or the AC power supplying the train, you would expect a Cl314 centre car to be much noisier.

Both the class 314 and 318 made the buzzing sound whether still or when accelerating in the centre car. Only the 314 made the buzzing sound at the front when accelerating. The 318 is silent. That's what I was trying to say. Also, the 318 middle car was a HELL of a lot louder than the 314. I could hear it over my iPod.

However, as I have been trying to say, the noise you have been describing doesn't come from the transformer or the AC power running down to it, but from the traction equipment. On a Cl318 this is under the centre car, but Cl314's have them under the outer cars instead.


I'm kindly disagreeing, because I think we are misunderstanding each other. This sound that I am talking about, is clearly caused by the flow of electricity and the 60Hz hum that it causes by reverberations of the electrical equipment. It's the same sound caused by a ground loop or that you may hear at an electricity substation. It can't be the traction equipment because it is uniform whether the train is accelerating softly, fully, or whether it is at a stand - and I am 100% certain it is the AC power because when the train goes over a dead section, the buzz cuts out, only to cut in again when the dead section is over a second or two later. This is in the centre cars of the trains, under the pantograph.


That sort of modulation could be just down to the driver playing with the power notches or because the WSP has detected wheelslip and is dipping the power to compensate.

The train was at a stand with the doors open...


Prepare to be disappointed. I have yet to find a recording device that can faithfully capture and recreate the sounds you hear live everyday. However, I wish you all the best with it because I also happen to quite like the sounds some of our Cl315's make.

Well, if you remember back to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_owHcwQ89oY from the 22 second mark there's that loud buzzing sound that sounds like a big bumble bee in your ear. I found out what camera that guy was using and bought it for myself, as it also happened to be a very decent camera at a great price.


The second batch of units that got GEC equipment rather than Brush equipment (315842-861) and have a couple of audible differences that mark them out. The first is the "clunk" you mentioned before when you take power from a stand, while the other is the Traction Interlock Relay that closes with a really loud "clack". I notice from comparing details on The Railway Centre that the Cl314's are similarly split into two batches, with 314207-216 appearing to have the same traction package as the second batch of Cl315's.

Yep, 314 213 does that same 'clunk' and also has one hell of a buzz when the throttle is in notch 4. 314 213 has a lot of character, I think the brakes are knackered because it shudders and jolts when braking at low speeds.

-> I hope I don't sound patronizing, or an a**hole, but I am really bad with my words, and I know what I am trying to say, it's just coming out all wrong. When I get my camera, I will just record all of the sounds that I mean, and then show you. But, I am convinced (so much I would put my house on it) that the sounds I am describing are purely caused by AC electrical reverberations and not the traction equipment which to me is more of a scream than a hum.

Maybe I am the only one who hears this immense hum that nearly all electrical equipment makes because I have hypersensitive ears...?
 

yorkie

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A Networker uses
110v DC for internal lighting
240v AC for head and tail lights, toilet dryer and cleaners sockets
1400v AC for traction motors
???v DC for heating

I can't find info on the 314 or similar type trains, but I know they have DC traction motors. I don't think they have cleaners sockets. I don't think they have toilets so won't have a dryer. So all that is required to eliminate the need for an AC supply is to make the headlights and tail lights DC powered. This is quite feasible. If this is the case then the only AC power in a 314 is from the pantograph down to the transformer, and I think this is what O L Leigh is saying, and he would know as he drives the very similar 315 units.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well, if you remember back to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_owHcwQ89oY from the 22 second mark there's that loud buzzing sound that sounds like a big bumble bee in your ear.
That sound is pretty constant when the motors are taking power. I would guess that noise is made by the transformer, which is converting the power from AC to DC. It's not the whine of the motors themselves. I can't think what else it could be. I am pretty sure that noise can only be found near the transformer and nowhere else.
 

captainbigun

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Transformers convert voltage (unless unity wound and providing isolation), not frequency or current type. The item of equipment you're looking for is the rectifier, AC in DC out. The transformer just steps down the primary (25kV) to 1000V (or whatever it is on these units) for the secondaries and to 240V (or similar) for the tertiary.
 
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Okay... so it may not be the hum of AC specifically but it is definitely an electrical sound of some sort. the sounds I am describing are not traction sounds :)

That said, DC doesn't (shouldn't) make any sounds because it goes directly rather than alternating... hmm... it's a conundrum, and I'm stubborn...
 

westcoaster

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just flicked through this could the uniform sound you could hear may be the MA set (motor altinator), this runs constantly, this steps the voltage down to 110v to supply the headlights/internal lights/hand dryer/sockets/cab heating. 319's +321's certainly hum, but when at full power scream, nowt worse then being next to a motor at full song.
 

O L Leigh

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I'm kindly disagreeing, because I think we are misunderstanding each other.

It can't be the traction equipment because it is uniform whether the train is accelerating softly, fully, or whether it is at a stand.

Then I'm afraid you've confused the hell out of me.

I initially thought that you were referring to an "always on" background hum, but had been persuaded by your later posts that you were not. Which is it?

In either case, here is a list of the various hums one might hear on a Cl314 together with their causes.

1) Transformer - This is a constant hum that neither rises nor falls in pitch nor, it would appear, change in volume. The primary cause of this hum is actually not electrical but mechanical. It's the oil pump that keeps the transformer cool. As the transformer lives under the centre car, this is where it will be heard.

2) Rectifier - Like the transformer, this is a constant hum that you may hear in the centre car. However, the rectifier doesn't tend to be very loud.

3) Traction Equipment - This can be a very loud hum that neither rises nor falls in pitch. However, the volume can change dramatically depending on the power notch being used by the driver, with peak volume in notch 3 or 4. On a Cl314 the traction equipment is under the outer cars.

4) Motors - This hum rises and falls in pitch with the motor revs, though interestingly they don't seem to be any louder in a high notch than in a low one. Most of the noise is actually mechanical from the permanently meshed final drive gearbox and motor bearings, as the motors will continue to whine even when coasting. The motors are together with the traction equipment under the outer cars.

5) Heating - This is a constant background hum heard throughout the train. Cl314's don't have convection heating but instead circulate warm air through the vents between the seat backs. This requires fans.

Both the class 314 and 318 made the buzzing sound whether still or when accelerating in the centre car. Only the 314 made the buzzing sound at the front when accelerating. The 318 is silent. That's what I was trying to say. Also, the 318 middle car was a HELL of a lot louder than the 314. I could hear it over my iPod.

This is the difference between the two classes. A Cl318 has it's transformer, rectifier, traction equipment and motors all together under the centre car with the outer cars being trailers. The Cl314, by contrast, spreads it's electrical equipment around with only the transformer and rectifier under the centre car and the traction equipment and motors under the outer cars.

A Cl314 is formed Motor-Trailer-Motor while a Cl318 is Trailer-Motor-Trailer.

Well, if you remember back to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_owHcwQ89oY from the 22 second mark there's that loud buzzing sound that sounds like a big bumble bee in your ear.

There are two sounds on that clip. The loud constant buzz is the traction equipment while the whine that rises in pitch is motor noise.

I am 100% certain it is the AC power because when the train goes over a dead section, the buzz cuts out, only to cut in again when the dead section is over a second or two later. This is in the centre cars of the trains, under the pantograph.

When a unit goes through a neutral section, the VCB opens which isolates the entire train from the pantograph down from the overheads. When this happens, everything that runs directly from the transformer cuts out. About the only things that don't cut out are the control circuits and the lighting, which is run temporarily from the 110V DC auxilliary supply (batteries, essentially). Even the heating fans stop.

As far as the AC power goes, it comes down the HT cable to the transformer. All of the train systems use DC power except for the secondary circuits providing heat and light, and these run at 240V AC the same as your domestic household supply.

This sound that I am talking about, is clearly caused by the flow of electricity and the 60Hz hum that it causes by reverberations of the electrical equipment. It's the same sound caused by a ground loop or that you may hear at an electricity substation.

Leaving aside that the overheads provide power at 50Hz not 60Hz, comparing the sound of a unit to an electrical substation is meaningless. The power levels are massively different, as are the uses. You only have t compare the difference in size of the transformers to see that.

In any case, as I said before, a lot of the noise transformers generate is caused by the oil pump.

I hope I don't sound patronizing, or an a**hole, but I am really bad with my words, and I know what I am trying to say, it's just coming out all wrong. When I get my camera, I will just record all of the sounds that I mean, and then show you. But, I am convinced (so much I would put my house on it) that the sounds I am describing are purely caused by AC electrical reverberations and not the traction equipment which to me is more of a scream than a hum.

Maybe I am the only one who hears this immense hum that nearly all electrical equipment makes because I have hypersensitive ears...?

I don't think you're being patronising or arrogant. We're just having a chat.

However, at the risk of appearing both of those things myself, I do "sign" electric units and am very familiar with the virtually identical Cl315 units. In order to do my job I have to be technically competent and have a good understanding of how these trains work. Therefore I do have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about.

Regards

O L Leigh
 
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Leaving aside that the overheads provide power at 50Hz not 60Hz, comparing the sound of a unit to an electrical substation is meaningless. The power levels are massively different, as are the uses. You only have t compare the difference in size of the transformers to see that.

In any case, as I said before, a lot of the noise transformers generate is caused by the oil pump.

Ok, my bad, it's the 50Hz hum that we have in the UK and it's America that has the 60Hz hum - I often get them mixed up.

As for comparing the sound of a unit to an electricity substation being meaningless - it isn't. Any AC electrical hum will emit the 50Hz hum (60Hz in the Americas), it can be a quiet one, a loud one, or, in the case of a certain urban explore I did lately, an almost deafening hum. (I will bring videos). Either way, it's still a 50Hz reverberation, therefore my comparison to an electricity substation is adequate...


When a unit goes through a neutral section, the VCB opens which isolates the entire train from the pantograph down from the overheads. When this happens, everything that runs directly from the transformer cuts out. About the only things that don't cut out are the control circuits and the lighting, which is run temporarily from the 110V DC auxilliary supply (batteries, essentially). Even the heating fans stop.

As far as the AC power goes, it comes down the HT cable to the transformer. All of the train systems use DC power except for the secondary circuits providing heat and light, and these run at 240V AC the same as your domestic household supply.

Useful information. I have sometimes wondered why the fans on our SPT class 334 Junipers sometimes cut out and go back on again - now I know, thanks!


Then I'm afraid you've confused the hell out of me.

I initially thought that you were referring to an "always on" background hum, but had been persuaded by your later posts that you were not. Which is it?
.

Right. I can understand why you're confused.

314s have a hum in two different places... a constant one in the middle, and one at the cab ends which gets louder the more power is applied. The 318 only has a hum in the middle, regardless of acceleration. The cab ends are silent. Thanks to your explanations here: 'A Cl314 is formed Motor-Trailer-Motor while a Cl318 is Trailer-Motor-Trailer.' I now understand why.

I think I pretty much understand about the sounds now.
 

O L Leigh

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As for comparing the sound of a unit to an electricity substation being meaningless - it isn't. Any AC electrical hum will emit the 50Hz hum (60Hz in the Americas), it can be a quiet one, a loud one, or, in the case of a certain urban explore I did lately, an almost deafening hum. (I will bring videos). Either way, it's still a 50Hz reverberation, therefore my comparison to an electricity substation is adequate.

But this is one of the points I've been trying to get across right from the start.

The sound is coming from the traction equipment which is DC, meaning that any similarity in sound is entirely incidental. The noise you hear on a Cl314 is not a 50Hz reverberation from the AC supply because there isn't an AC supply to the motor cars. The only AC supply on the unit past the transformer/rectifier is the secondary circuit rated at 240V AC (the same as in your house), and this does not create any audible hum.

O L Leigh
 
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