Is it possible for DB to replace their overnight ICE/IC with OBB's nightjet train?

[Stephen Lee]

Recently, I have heard that the Amsterdam-Zurich Nightjet service is replacing an overnight ICE service, I wondered if Sleepers/Couchettes has become a compulsory element to form a night train?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Recently, I have heard that the Amsterdam-Zurich Nightjet service is replacing an overnight ICE service, I wondered if Sleepers/Couchettes has become a compulsory element to form a night train?

Or perhaps more likely DB saw an opportunity to reduce costs by contractually 'hitching a ride' with Nightjet, and Nightjet an opportunity to increase revenue with a contribution from DB?

The Zurich Hamburg Nightjet also conveys both Nightjet and DB seating coaches.

I do wonder what seated the ticketing arrangements are e.g. for a domestic journey in Germany pay fare to DB and travel in their (or SBB) coaches, and for international journey pay fare to Nightjet and travel in their coaches. Maybe someone can advise how it works.

 

[StephenHunter]

Recently, I have heard that the Amsterdam-Zurich Nightjet service is replacing an overnight ICE service, I wondered if Sleepers/Couchettes has become a compulsory element to form a night train?

No, but sleeper accommodation - and I believe air-conditioned sleeper accommodation at that - is compulsory to use the EuroNight designation. The Berlin-Stockholm service is a mere "Durchzug", as is the Vienna-Kiev one.

 

[DanielB]

I do wonder what seated the ticketing arrangements are e.g. for a domestic journey in Germany pay fare to DB and travel in their (or SBB) coaches, and for international journey pay fare to Nightjet and travel in their coaches. Maybe someone can advise how it works.

Although it's one train, the seated carriages run as IC 60403 and the sleeper/couchette cars as NJ 403 (train numbers towards Zürich). It thus depends on which train number you book a ticket for what the fare will be: book IC 60403 and you'll pay normal DB fares, but when NJ 403 is booked you'll pay the Nightjet fares.
The DB journey planner actually gives you four options for this journey: by Nightjet to Basel and then a domestic Swiss IC (probably faster due to shunting in Basel), by IC direct to Zürich. The other to options are possible due to the IC/NJ being so slow: domestic IC to Arnhem (departing 10 minutes later, but overtaking the NJ in Maarn), then continue as above.

The direct IC from Amsterdam to Zürich however is the only connection where DB is able to show a fare.

 

[30907]

Or perhaps more likely DB saw an opportunity to reduce costs by contractually 'hitching a ride' with Nightjet, and Nightjet an opportunity to increase revenue with a contribution from DB?

The sleeper wouldn't have been viable on its own, and the night ICE was an expensive way to provide for the various markets it covered.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Although it's one train, the seated carriages run as IC 60403 and the sleeper/couchette cars as NJ 403 (train numbers towards Zürich). It thus depends on which train number you book a ticket for what the fare will be: book IC 60403 and you'll pay normal DB fares, but when NJ 403 is booked you'll pay the Nightjet fares.
The DB journey planner actually gives you four options for this journey: by Nightjet to Basel and then a domestic Swiss IC (probably faster due to shunting in Basel), by IC direct to Zürich. The other to options are possible due to the IC/NJ being so slow: domestic IC to Arnhem (departing 10 minutes later, but overtaking the NJ in Maarn), then continue as above.

The direct IC from Amsterdam to Zürich however is the only connection where DB is able to show a fare.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Dec 2021 ==

The sleeper wouldn't have been viable on its own, and the night ICE was an expensive way to provide for the various markets it covered.

Thanks both for this info.

 

[DanNCL]

Although many of DB's overnight IC/ICE services could be replaced by seating coaches attached to Nightjets, not all of them can - one example that can't is the overnight service between Wien Hbf and Rostock Hbf, which serves pretty much just as a way of cycling DB's Stadler Kiss units between the Dresden - Warnemunde route and their maintenance base with Westbahn in Vienna.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Although many of DB's overnight IC/ICE services could be replaced by seating coaches attached to Nightjets, not all of them can - one example that can't is the overnight service between Wien Hbf and Rostock Hbf, which serves pretty much just as a way of cycling DB's Stadler Kiss units between the Dresden - Warnemunde route and their maintenance base with Westbahn in Vienna.

Any other examples?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Dec 2021 ==

Although many of DB's overnight IC/ICE services could be replaced by seating coaches attached to Nightjets, not all of them can - one example that can't is the overnight service between Wien Hbf and Rostock Hbf, which serves pretty much just as a way of cycling DB's Stadler Kiss units between the Dresden - Warnemunde route and their maintenance base with Westbahn in Vienna.

Looks like there’s a surplus of IC1 coaches due to more IC2, ICE-4 and ICE-L delivered

 

[DanNCL]

Any other examples?

Not that instantly come to mind but it wouldn’t surprise me if there were others, especially on routes to/from Hamburg as that’s where the ICE1, ICE2 and ICE4 fleets are all maintained.

Looks like there’s a surplus of IC1 coaches due to more IC2, ICE-4 and ICE-L delivered

DB are trying to eliminate the IC1 coaches and the 101s from their fleet, so I can’t see DB wanting to deploy them on any new services.

 

[Peterthegreat]

No, but sleeper accommodation - and I believe air-conditioned sleeper accommodation at that - is compulsory to use the EuroNight designation. The Berlin-Stockholm service is a mere "Durchzug", as is the Vienna-Kiev one.

It's Durchgangszug.

 

[Austriantrain]

It's Durchgangszug.

While it has an interesting meaning and „D“ is still used as a train identification (in Austria, not sure if DB still uses it), the word „Durchgangszug“ has not really been used in written or spoken German for a very long time. It‘s either „D-Zug“ or „Schnellzug“ (fast train).

 

[dutchflyer]

Re this-its Weihnachten today-so all seasons greetings dabei.
Actually ´Durchgang´ has a very old antique meaning: in the distant past-from my own memory BR stuck longest to it- wagons or even complete trains had just compartments without any walk-through possibilty. I remember I was utterly surprised when I encountered that in GB on my first trip, around 1970. Long before even WW2 it was seen as a big new achievement that wagons/coaches had gangways and even the possibilty to step from car 1 into 2. Nicest for conductors, who then did not need to fear for life when checking tickets (this was such explained by a teacher at High School).
D-zug generally also had portions for different destinations and one might just as well use the D for this=through cars with need for change, the cars change, not you the passenger (which was once a very old promotional slogan).
DB has several overnight ICE-most are aimed to serve very early airport departures at FRA-as does this train where the topic started. One makes a kind of roundabout zigzag: starts München, via FRA, then to Berlin and north to Hamburg. Quite impracticle to replace that with NJ.
UNtill 11/12 the northbound ICE (which replaced an old IC just a few years ago) from Basel/Swiss to Köln (and now again to Nederland) went on to Hamburg-Kiel.
From what I understood, this new NJ has a domestic german portion with just seating cars and at/detached when locs change anyway, type IC, but I am not sure and it may be not done now due to much lower demand re covid.
NightJet seems to be a branded label only used by OeBB-as of course they do daytime RailJet, also their coöperating CD=czech railways. In the past when there was once again some move to reestablish and promote rebranded overnights trains, various other labels have also been used. Like EN=EuroNight or ICN=IC-Night/nacht/notte/nuit/natt.

 

[StephenHunter]

EuroNight is still used extensively for international services and ICN for domestic Italian services, but all the ÖBB operated services are Nightjet. I believe that the Brussels-Vienna service, which attaches to Amsterdam-Wien/Innsbruck one at Köln West (or in my case, Troisdorf, due to engineering works) is EN325 before it gets to Aachen.

 

[biko]

EuroNight is still used extensively for international services and ICN for domestic Italian services, but all the ÖBB operated services are Nightjet. I believe that the Brussels-Vienna service, which attaches to Amsterdam-Wien/Innsbruck one at Köln West (or in my case, Troisdorf, due to engineering works) is EN325 before it gets to Aachen.

As far as I can see, it is NJ 325 throughout.

 

[StephenHunter]

As far as I can see, it is NJ 325 throughout.

It's NJ 425 on the Nightjet website, although it travels with NJ 421 to Nuremberg and NJ 491 after that.

 

[biko]

It's NJ 425 on the Nightjet website, although it travels with NJ 421 to Nuremberg and NJ 491 after that.

Bahn.de and Hafas said NJ 325 for the Brussels to Vienna portion

 

[Austriantrain]

Bahn.de and Hafas said NJ 325 for the Brussels to Vienna portion

ÖBB timetable site says 425. It’s possible both are right - 325 for operational (from Brussels to Köln, allocated by SNCB and DB) and 425 for commercial purposes (allocated by ÖBB).

 

[30907]

Not that instantly come to mind but it wouldn’t surprise me if there were others, especially on routes to/from Hamburg as that’s where the ICE1, ICE2 and ICE4 fleets are all maintained.

As it happens, the three daily overnight seats trains all run to/from Hamburg:
ICE 920/1 Frankfurt-Koeln-Hamburg (just converted from an IC) and
ICE 618/9 München-Frankfurt-Koeln (-Hamburg in daytime)
ICE 698/9 (München daytime-) Stuttgart-Frankfurt-Erfurt (-Berlin-Hamburg in daytime).
All serve Frankfurt Airport which suggests their main role (apart from enthusiasts who grumble at the lack of compartments )
I can't see any of those being replaced by a seated portion on a sleeper.

 

[DanielB]

ÖBB timetable site says 425. It’s possible both are right - 325 for operational (from Brussels to Köln, allocated by SNCB and DB) and 425 for commercial purposes (allocated by ÖBB).

The Brussels Nightjet has a 3xx-number in Belgium as the number range 400-450 is already in use for the NMBS-IC from Welkenraedt to Kortrijk. (Although there's no actual train numbered 425)