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Is it possible to send Southern Coastal trains via Sutton instead of East Croydon?

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NorthKent1989

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There's been a lot of talk about how congested the Brighton Main line is, particularly around East Croydon.

Is it possible to send the Portsmouth and Southampton trains via Sutton, taking the Mole Valley line after diverging from the BML south of Balham or at least sending the trains via West Croydon to Sutton? Though the latter option is more problematic than utilising the majority of the Sutton and Mole Valley line.
 
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MidnightFlyer

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Used to be the case until the 1980s. I believe the draw of Gatwick Airport was what caused the change of route.
 

Peter Mugridge

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It is possible - some used to run that way.

However, these days I think the pathing availability through Sutton and Epsom would be... interesting.

There are 6 trains an hour between Epsom and Leatherhead, 5 trains an hour between Epsom and Sutton, 2 of which terminate at Epsom. Don't forget these are all flat junctions as well.

At Sutton you have the additional complication of the Thameslink services plus the Sutton terminating workings.
 

HarleyDavidson

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Yes. Because the lines through Epsom/Leatherhead & Dorking are known as the Portsmouth lines. They used to, but I can't remember when they stopped the through services, I suspect it was sometime in the late 70's or early 80's.

However they won't do it today because it misses out Gatwick, the only time they go that way is when there's engineering work or something goes pear-shaped. Also it would either get in the way of the suburban services or be delayed by SN suburban services and we all know how bad SN services are already.
 

Feathers44

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I have no idea of the truth of it but I've read that the last round of re-signalling done (beyond Dorking I think?) wiped out a good amount of capacity since Gatwick had taken a lot of the traffic. The implication was that further re-signalling would be required in order to put the traffic back.
 

Bald Rick

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Possible? Yes.

Practical? Not really. Dorking - Horsham has signalling capacity and power capacity limits. Getting more trains across the level crossing at Ashtead would be interesting, particularly given the local MP.

Desirable? Not at all. Especially for the many south of Horsham who commute to Crawley, Gatwick and Croydon, nor the good folk of Crawley and Three Bridges who would lose a substantial chunk of their Lonodns service.
 

HarleyDavidson

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Not really. You could just make a stopping service from Littlehampton go that way and make it limited call beyond Epsom which call at Ewell East, Cheam, Sutton, Mitcham Eastfields, Clapham & Vic.

You could always axe the Ewell, Cheam & Mitcham stops, to give Epsom & Sutton an unparallelled fast service to London.
 

Peter Mugridge

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You could always axe the Ewell, Cheam & Mitcham stops, to give Epsom & Sutton an unparallelled fast service to London.

There's already a half hourly that runs fast from Sutton to Clapham Junction. This is the xx.12/xx.13 and xx.42/xx.43 off Epsom. Harley - these go off platform 2 most of the time and are the reason why the Waterloo to Guildfords often get held for 2 - 3 minutes at the last signal before Epsom...
 

RichJF

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If I remember correctly, I read (before my time) somewhere that it was the timetable change of 1978 when the coastal trains switched to via Gatwick.
Before that they used to call at Dorking, Sutton & Victoria only I think.
 

Deepgreen

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Yes. Because the lines through Epsom/Leatherhead & Dorking are known as the Portsmouth lines. They used to, but I can't remember when they stopped the through services, I suspect it was sometime in the late 70's or early 80's.

However they won't do it today because it misses out Gatwick, the only time they go that way is when there's engineering work or something goes pear-shaped. Also it would either get in the way of the suburban services or be delayed by SN suburban services and we all know how bad SN services are already.

1984 was the last year (peaks and Saturdays only). I recall a spectacular journey in December 1981, amid a blizzard, when many trains had been cancelled but the 1650 Victoria to Bognor working was running (CIG+BIG+CIG). With about of foot of snow on the ground and more falling rapidly, we had a clear road and must have nudged 90mph between Sutton and Epsom, with me in the buffet car on this normally dull suburban run!
 
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swt_passenger

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The Sussex Route Study explained (again) why they cannot path additional long distance trains via Sutton. It crops up in the forums quite regularly, often in conjunction with proposals for the missing Arundel Chord.
 

NorthKent1989

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Thanks for the responses.

Its quite an obvious reason as to why the Southern long distance trains run via Gatwick I guess, its just that I've been reading about this proposed (but not official) new rail scheme called the
Brighton main line two (BML2) which would reuse parts of the Wealden lines and the suburban Hayes Line via an old link in Selsdon which closed in 1983, the BML2 would avoid Gatwick but the scheme itself should be killed off as while it would release the existing BML in terms of pressure, the knock on effect would be endless delays on the Wealden/Oxted line and the Hayes line especially, so I thought that diverting some Portsmouth trains maybe the "stopping" trains via Sutton where it would call at Clapham Junction, Balham, Mitcham Junction, Sutton, Epsom, Dorking and Horsham then all stations to Southampton and Portsmouth, but thi would also cause problems for Thameslink in particular
 
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ChrisHogan

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Yes. Because the lines through Epsom/Leatherhead & Dorking are known as the Portsmouth lines. They used to, but I can't remember when they stopped the through services, I suspect it was sometime in the late 70's or early 80's.

May 1978 saw the Portsmouth Harbour/Bognor Regis service diverted via Crawley.

A few summers later a token service was provided via Dorking on summer Saturday but it didn't last long.
 

ChrisHogan

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I have no idea of the truth of it but I've read that the last round of re-signalling done (beyond Dorking I think?) wiped out a good amount of capacity since Gatwick had taken a lot of the traffic. The implication was that further re-signalling would be required in order to put the traffic back.

The semaphore signalling between Dorking and Horsham was Tyers one-wire two position with intermediate SBs at Holmwood and Warnham. With Holmwood switched out (only opened in the peaks for the starters or terminators), the section was Lodge Farm IBS to Warnham on the down, or about 20 minutes with a stopping train. The present set-up (if Traksy berths are correct) appears to replicate the old capacity when Holmwood was switched in.
 

tsr

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Another problem with running additional services on the Portsmouth Lines route is the lack of workarounds if one line gets blocked by signalling problems, failed trains and so on. Crossovers are very limited and for most of the route there is nothing remotely like bidirectional signalling. Dorking has a couple of platforms for looping and terminations, if the timetable allows it, which is surprisingly rare; there is a crossover with limited functionality at Leatherhead, there are a couple of opportunities to be resourceful with platforms at Epsom, and then further north, where it's even busier, you're really quite limited in what you can do. The next significant opportunities to turn trains round are really only at West Croydon (if you're being inventive with the turnback), Balham, Streatham or, if you head onto the Wallingtons, perhaps Selhurst (for the depot only).

The semaphore signalling between Dorking and Horsham was Tyers one-wire two position with intermediate SBs at Holmwood and Warnham. With Holmwood switched out (only opened in the peaks for the starters or terminators), the section was Lodge Farm IBS to Warnham on the down, or about 20 minutes with a stopping train. The present set-up (if Traksy berths are correct) appears to replicate the old capacity when Holmwood was switched in.

Nearly replicates it, certainly. However, there are quirks, such as the crossover at Holmwood no longer being in existence. This makes working around faults and failures quite difficult, but fortunately the line beyond Dorking is quiet enough to prevent this becoming too much of an issue.

Interestingly, the Dorking-Horsham section of the Portsmouth Lines has a small amount of jointed track, and track circuits are not used in some places. Axle counters are instead used from (approximately) country side of Betchworth Tunnel, until you get just north of Warnham.

Despite a very large amount of electrical infrastructure for such a comparatively short and less-well-used bit of line, the third rail is not especially reliable, indeed I was delayed on several services during one recent morning peak because of this. The positioning of the signal sections is also a constraint; as could be implied from what you've written, the line can handle about 3tph reliably in each direction, including occasional non-stop runs between Dorking and Horsham. So long as you don't try more than that, the next biggest constraint can often be the throat at the north of Horsham itself. Trains from Dorking fairly regularly get held there for around 3 to 10 extra minutes, which is not attractive for trying to make connections.
 
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Thebaz

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The last time there would have been 'regular' services that way must have been just after Purley. I remember as boy "spotting" at Sutton when to my surprise an express thundered through platform 1 just as a stopper to Littlehampton was pulling into platform 2...I have never since seen a train hit Sutton at such speed.

Later NSE ran a summer Saturday 1 train per day southbound only London Bridge to Littlehampton and Bognor via West Croydon. Got on with the family at Carshalton Beeches and had a nice day out to the seaside. Although, I admit to being more interested in the journey!

Anyway whilst I'm here, and delving into the realms of fantasy, I don't see why in theory the off-peak Vic-Sutton-Dorking-Horsham trains can't continue southbound as additional services - and I'm not talking about putting any extra trains between Sutton and Leatherhead. Currently one train terminates at Dorking (it's slightly faster, skipping Ewell and Boxhill) and the other at Horsham. My suggestion would be to slightly modify the calling patterns of both services. The current Dorking train will be extended to Horsham reintroducing stops at Carshalton, Ewell, Boxhill, and shacks between DKG and HRH. The current HRH train will call after Sutton Cheam, Epsom, Leatherhead, DKG, HRH, Billingshurst and stations to Weymouth (I kid...). Now isn't that sensible!? I've added in the stop at Carshalton because it is intimated in Southern's consultation for the 2018 mass timetable change that the fast Sutton trains will be calling there additionally.

I'm going to run away now.:p
 

cle

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For a while there were services fast from Clapham to Carshalton I believe, in the 90s. Seem to remember them in Victoria.
 

ChrisHogan

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Nearly replicates it, certainly. However, there are quirks, such as the crossover at Holmwood no longer being in existence. This makes working around faults and failures quite difficult, but fortunately the line beyond Dorking is quiet enough to prevent this becoming too much of an issue.

In three years at Dorking (1975-1977) with a more intense service I never had to use the crossover at Holmwood for other than shunting terminators/starters there. The signalling at Dorking is surprisingly flexible for a pre-WW2 layout with both 2 and 3 platform lines fully bidirectional.

The loss of the middle roads at Cheam (1977 I think) meant that there was no opportunity to regulate between Dorking and Streatham Junction.

I can't believe with today's fragmented railway that anyone in NRIL would contemplate SLW south of Dorking. It is so much easier to close the line and instruct the TOC to organise road transport.
 
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Feathers44

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The loss of the middle roads at Cheam (1977 I think) meant that there was no opportunity to regulate between Dorking and Streatham Junction.

I hadn't realised they'd gone in my lifetime. Presumable the extra tracks from there to Sutton went earlier though?
 

Bookd

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One memory, from when I lived at Sutton in the late 70s I occasionally had to go to CJ or London on business; there was a Portsmouth train at (about) 08.15 and by standing at the right spot on the platform I could step straight in to the buffet car and have time for coffee and toast on the way. I was always surprised by how many were drinking beer or scotch at that hour!
 

Feathers44

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Were there any?

There were, although not quite to Sutton if carto-metro is to be believed which has them ending just west of Sutton West Junction.

I once found a local website with a load of old pictures but I don't remember where that was.

Wikipedia states that the lines through Cheam station were lifted in '78 rather than '77 for what it's worth. Either way, I never went down there back then. We lived too close to Wimbledon.

Edit: The only image I can find that might or might not be evidence is the second image on this page:

http://www.friendsofhoneywood.co.uk/Transport/1930s.htm

Identified as Cheam, this certainly isn't in the station itself since the tracks are too close together.
 
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Peter Mugridge

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Edit: The only image I can find that might or might not be evidence is the second image on this page:

http://www.friendsofhoneywood.co.uk/Transport/1930s.htm

Identified as Cheam, this certainly isn't in the station itself since the tracks are too close together.

In that second picture it cannot be far from the station as the A217 bridge - seen more clearly in the first photo - is just about visible in the background. What I cannot tell from that is whether it is to the east or the west of the station.
 

Feathers44

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In that second picture it cannot be far from the station as the A217 bridge - seen more clearly in the first photo - is just about visible in the background. What I cannot tell from that is whether it is to the east or the west of the station.

I think the track spacing rules out the view being from the west (looking east) as the distance would put the photographer to the far side of the station from the bridge and hence the track spacing for the never-built central platform would be evident.

All conjecture on my part, of course.
 

Peter Mugridge

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The first picture, however, shows a track on the middle of the alignment using the central space of the three currently vacant in the bridge? Was the proposed central platform in fact going to be two islands with the central track facing both?
 
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Feathers44

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The first picture, however, shows a track on the middle of the alignment using the central space of the three currently vacant in the bridge? Was the proposed central platform in fact going to be two islands with the central track facing both?

I don't believe so but I don't know.

My assumption has always been that either the war got in the way and they laid that track very quickly or (perhaps) it was adjusted later once the plans for the central platform were dropped to remove the unnecessary curve along the platform line to increase line speed or something.

I've never found a picture of any other alignment, however.

Edit: The best map I've found is this one:

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/?nls...365068&lat=51.3555&lon=-0.2158&layers=173&b=1

but you see that the four track section crosses a page boundary to the east of the station and the next page was obviously drawn after the outer tracks were removed.

It's clear, however, that there was no parallel four track section to the west of the station that would match what was shown in the picture.
 
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Peter Mugridge

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Yes, it does look in that map like the down through has been shifted across to the middle at the west end of the station doesn't it?

I wonder if there are local historians in the area who might know more than what is online?
 

Deepgreen

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I think the track spacing rules out the view being from the west (looking east) as the distance would put the photographer to the far side of the station from the bridge and hence the track spacing for the never-built central platform would be evident.

All conjecture on my part, of course.

The photo shows the view from just west of Sutton towards Cheam. The outer roads only were electrified, as the centre/fast roads were for steam only at this stage.

There was a proposal by Network Rail around the turn of the century to reinstate the four track layout to permit the operation of semi-fast/coastal trains to relieve the BML, and for them to overtake stoppers at Cheam. As with so many schemes, it sank into the mire of failed business cases.
 

Feathers44

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The photo shows the view from just west of Sutton towards Cheam. The outer roads only were electrified, as the centre/fast roads were for steam only at this stage.

There was a proposal by Network Rail around the turn of the century to reinstate the four track layout to permit the operation of semi-fast/coastal trains to relieve the BML, and for them to overtake stoppers at Cheam. As with so many schemes, it sank into the mire of failed business cases.

Thanks for that. I hadn't heard about the more recent plans but as I'm an infrastructure romantic* I'd have to say it was a shame it never got done.

I was always a bit surprised that they ever bothered with four tracks for that section. I see the use for pasing stopping services but a four tracked station seems to have done that job well enough. Anyway, surely similar features would be required further down the line to allow a serious attempt at a semi-fast service?

I guess you could run fasts bi-directionally through the middle at Dorking or something for further passing and I suppose I don't really know enough about the line further south to comment sensibly.




*Infrastructure Romantic = Someone who believes no bit of railway infrastructure that was built should ever be removed regardless of cost or current utility.
 

TurboFintan

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Cheam_05.jpg


Source: http://www.friendsofhoneywood.co.uk/Transport/1900s.htm (Bottom of page)

On the same website as mentioned above by Feathers44, it is found in the 1900s section which shows Cheam in its rebuilt form. It does mention that there were plans to have a central island platform but the track layout makes it look awkward?
 
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