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Is it time for a change of government and change of strategy?

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thejuggler

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We are entering the next cycle of a very unhealthy political landscape, but its nothing new, these things always go in cycles.

It usually starts with a global financial crisis (2008) and takes 10-15 years for the pain to be felt. By then the new voters who have really suffered have decided enough is enough and they start the next cycle.
 
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Cowley

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We are entering the next cycle of a very unhealthy political landscape, but its nothing new, these things always go in cycles.

It usually starts with a global financial crisis (2008) and takes 10-15 years for the pain to be felt. By then the new voters who have really suffered have decided enough is enough and they start the next cycle.
I think we possibly should have reached the end of that cycle at the last election, but the offering from Labour definitely wasn’t floating too many boats...
 

bramling

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If the Conservative party could dump Margaret they sure as hell can dump Boris.

I think the seeds of that point are possibly now being sewn. There's certainly increasing chatter from the backbenchers on Covid, as well as some other issues bubbling away in the background - the international law issue and just recently over Boris's housebuilding plans. Even with four years to go until an election there will be MPs and membership getting jittery.

I have to say I am starting to move beyond the incompetence theory now, this government is becoming so uniquely horrendous I'm not sure it's just incompetence. Cummings is rumoured to be an anarchist at heart, after all...

There's differences to Thatcher, however. Apart from the fact she'd been in power successfully for a decade (I know people may dispute that, however whatever one's views on Thatcher two successive re-elections is a success by any measure), there were some obvious replacements - even if the one we got was a classic "none of the above" candidate. Who on earth replaces Boris is less clear - Sunak might be in with a chance were a leadership election to happen at this moment, but I'm very much of the view that six months forwards from now any standing he has will be utterly trashed, as he'll be the one seen to be responsible for splashing out all the cash that we all will somehow have to repay.
 

jtuk

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Thatcher, think what you like of her, would never have taken anything SAGE etc are saying on face value, being from a science background
 

Yew

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A rather damming critique from Carl Heneghan of the Cabinet and the current policy in the Spectator today:

When Boris Johnson returned to work in April after his brush with coronavirus, he warned that lockdown restrictions must remain to prevent a second wave. Ever since, beset by anxieties, doubts and fear, and surrounded by a platoon of advisors, the PM has made one cautious, catastrophic error after another.

Last week’s roll of the dice with the ‘rule of six’ could well be the policy that tips the British public over the edge. For it is a disturbing decision that has no scientific evidence to back it up, and may well end up having major social consequences.

The government has decided to blame young people for the latest restrictions, having spent August asking them to revive the economy. What was the purpose of Chancellor Rishi Sunak’s ‘eat out to help out’ scheme if at the first sign of a rise in cases the PM’s hasty response is to lockdown again? We were told to get back to work, what did the government expect? Increased activity at the end of summer leads to an increase in acute respiratory infections, as it does every year. This is not rocket science.

Last week Mr Johnson and his team, as they have done many times, acted too hastily. There is no evidence to inform the rule of six – its impact will be minimal.

At Oxford University’s Centre for Evidence Based Medicine, we have spent years trawling through the scientific evidence on the effects of measures such as distancing on respiratory viral spread. We are not aware of any study pointing to the number six. If it’s made up, why not five or seven?

The lack of evidence reflects the inconsistency in the devolved nations’ implementation of the rule. In England, gatherings of more than six people will be illegal. In Wales and Scotland, children under 12 are exempt; people in Wales will also be able to meet in groups of up to 30 outdoors. Northern Ireland has taken a more measured approach and not announced any changes to how many people can meet. These disagreements in policy reveal how decisions are being made without evidence. It seems that somebody in government sat in a cabinet office room and said six is a good idea and nobody disagreed.

At its core, the decision to restrict gatherings belies a fundamental misunderstanding of what is happening with coronavirus in Britain.

Admissions for Covid, critical care bed occupancies and deaths are now at an all-time low. There are currently 600 patients in hospital with Covid compared to over 17,000 at the height of the epidemic. An average of ten patients a day die with Covid registered on their death certificate, compared to over 1,000 at the peak.

The current shift in focus away from the impact of the disease is a worrying development. For months the severity of the pandemic was monitored by numbers of cases, numbers of admissions, and deaths. All three measures are open to misinterpretation if their definitions are not standardised.

Cases are being over-diagnosed by a test that can pick up dead viral load; hospital admissions are subjective decisions made by physicians which can vary from hospital to hospital. Even deaths have been misattributed.

Intervening with restrictive measures at the first sign of an upturn in cases means we are in for a long hard winter. The government’s modelling predicts catastrophe. Yet this is wide of the mark. Cases will rise, as they will in winter for all acute respiratory pathogens, but this will not necessarily translate into excess deaths.

In times of crisis, soothsayers are all the craze. Despite their consistently poor results, the government keeps turning to models to inform its policymaking. When it does this, it ignores the vast expertise of our clinicians and public health experts who could provide a more robust approach based on their real-world healthcare experiences.

The problems with policy stem from the current cabinet’s vast inexperience: the Health Secretary has been in post for just over two years now; the PM and the Chief Medical Officer a year. The Joint Biosecurity Centre is overseen by a senior spy who monitors the spread of coronavirus and suppresses new outbreaks. Add to this mix the new chair of the National Institute for Health Protection, who similarly has little or no background in healthcare. Our leaders amount to little more than a Dad’s Army of highly paid individuals with little or no experience of the job at hand.

This inexperience leads to rash decisions and arbitrary policies.

One example is that entire areas can be locked down if they have 50 cases per 100,000 people. Yet the recognised alert threshold for ‘regular’ acute respiratory infections is 400 cases per 100,000.


Epidemics are nonlinear; they tend to be chaotic with few certainties. Leaders cannot foresee the future; they need flexibility in their planning. In fact, epidemics are like war: foggy, unpredictable and never go the way you think.

As the situation has worsened, Britain’s mental health has deteriorated. During lockdown, a fifth of vulnerable people considered self-harming, routine healthcare came to a standstill, operations were cancelled, and cancer care put on hold.

Through all this, the health secretary transformed himself into the Covid secretary as these wider healthcare issues were disregarded.

Covid caught us with our pants down despite 20 years of pandemic preparedness rhetoric and expense. The most glaring initial blunder was not observing what was going on in other European nations and learning from their mistakes. When we asked a senior Italian health official in Lombardy if he had had any British observers or requests for information during the initial phases of the pandemic, he replied: ‘no’.

So, what should we do to address the situation? First the governments must set a clear aim for containing all acute respiratory infections – not just Covid – and formulate a plan for the short, medium and long term

In the short term, we have a choice: contain the spread – which is unrealistic – or shelter the vulnerable and get on with life.

We need to also urgently reinforce the primary care surveillance system, which gathers intelligence of what is actually happening in the community.

It is also vital that we review the accuracy of the tests currently being deployed. Our studies show that many Covid tests are picking up virus traces long after an infection has gone. An overly simplistic testing approach has, therefore, resulted in large numbers of people being incorrectly labelled as a threat to public health.

We must ensure that we have adequate supplies of PPE equipment and our frontline staff are supported physically and mentally.

Most important of all, life should return to as close as possible to normality. Drugs and vaccines may very well help us in the long term, but the short-term strategy should be based on the lessons learned in these chaotic few months.

In these pressing times, we need thoughtful, analytical policy that refrains from intervening when the uncertainties are significant, and the evidence is lacking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL76UyJPCv4
We need to simplify the messaging around social distancing. And remove the plethora of non-evidence-based policies.

For starters, the rule of six policy should be binned. We must also address the failings that meant we were wholly unprepared to begin with. We need advice that isn’t too narrow in its focus.

Most of all, Mr Johnson, we need you not to panic.
 

AdamWW

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A rather damming critique from Carl Heneghan of the Cabinet and the current policy in the Spectator today:

Hmmm.

They want to go straight back to normality based on the principle that "this will not necessarily translate into excess deaths."

And you shoudn't put any limit on people meeting up because the number 6 is to some extent arbitrary?

People make decisions all the time where you have to pick a number even though there's no one obviously right one.

We shouldn't have an age of consent because there's no scientific proof that we've picked just the right age and different countries pick different ages?

I presume they're also in favour of dropping social distancing entirely on the grounds that we don't know exactly what distance we should use so we shouldn't have any.

The problem with all the arguments that the cabinet have picked the wrong strategy for whatever reason (lack of experience, lack of scientific background) is that our overall strategy is not vastly different from the majority of other countries.
 

Yew

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They want to go straight back to normality based on the principle that "this will not necessarily translate into excess deaths."

However the cons of more restrictions are inevitable

And you shoudn't put any limit on people meeting up because the number 6 is to some extent arbitrary?

People make decisions all the time where you have to pick a number even though there's no one obviously right one.
countries.


Is there any proof that the recent cases are due to larger gatherings? It seems the main thing that has changed is that people are going out more, to shops, to pubs and to work. We've seen outbreaks in offices, factories and in pubs but not have been attributed to 15 people at a party as far as I'm aware. You can't meet as more than a six, unless you have a meeting room and an outlook invitation? A restriction on gatherings seems at best an attempt to try and trade off restrictions, and at worst an attempt by the government to shift the blame away from their policies and onto the impure souls who dare enjoy themselves.

The problem with all the arguments that the cabinet have picked the wrong strategy for whatever reason (lack of experience, lack of scientific background) is that our overall strategy is not vastly different from the majority of other countries.

If everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you?
 

Bantamzen

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Hmmm.

They want to go straight back to normality based on the principle that "this will not necessarily translate into excess deaths."

And you shoudn't put any limit on people meeting up because the number 6 is to some extent arbitrary?

People make decisions all the time where you have to pick a number even though there's no one obviously right one.

We shouldn't have an age of consent because there's no scientific proof that we've picked just the right age and different countries pick different ages?

I presume they're also in favour of dropping social distancing entirely on the grounds that we don't know exactly what distance we should use so we shouldn't have any.

The problem with all the arguments that the cabinet have picked the wrong strategy for whatever reason (lack of experience, lack of scientific background) is that our overall strategy is not vastly different from the majority of other countries.

But what if those other countries also got it wrong? Its all very well basing policies loosely on what everyone else is doing, but if they are not doing the right thing in the first copying their strategies isn't going to suddenly make it right. And it seems that many of these countries did get it wrong, because despite all their restrictions the virus refuses to budge.
 

AdamWW

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Is there any proof that the recent cases are due to larger gatherings? It seems the main thing that has changed is that people are going out more, to shops, to pubs and to work. We've seen outbreaks in offices, factories and in pubs but not have been attributed to 15 people at a party as far as I'm aware. You can't meet as more than a six, unless you have a meeting room and an outlook invitation? A restriction on gatherings seems at best an attempt to try and trade off restrictions, and at worst an attempt by the government to shift the blame away from their policies and onto the impure souls who dare enjoy themselves.

That wasn't my point - they were in part basing their argument on the fact that the number 6 is in itself somewhat arbitrary, which in my view is not a valid argument.

If everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you?

Again, not my point.

I didn't mean that other countries doing the same meant we were right.

It does mean that an argument that our overall strategy is due to us having an incompetent cabinet is not very convincing unless you assume that other countries are simultaneously suffering form the same problem.

But what if those other countries also got it wrong? Its all very well basing policies loosely on what everyone else is doing, but if they are not doing the right thing in the first copying their strategies isn't going to suddenly make it right. And it seems that many of these countries did get it wrong, because despite all their restrictions the virus refuses to budge.

Because the premise of the article was that we have done the wrong thing due to the incompetence of our cabinet.
 

Yew

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That wasn't my point - they were in part basing their argument on the fact that the number 6 is in itself somewhat arbitrary, which in my view is not a valid argument.

They do suggest that as these numbers are arbitrary due to a lack of evidence to provide a solid number.

The lack of evidence reflects the inconsistency in the devolved nations’ implementation of the rule. In England, gatherings of more than six people will be illegal. In Wales and Scotland, children under 12 are exempt; people in Wales will also be able to meet in groups of up to 30 outdoors. Northern Ireland has taken a more measured approach and not announced any changes to how many people can meet. These disagreements in policy reveal how decisions are being made without evidence. It seems that somebody in government sat in a cabinet office room and said six is a good idea and nobody disagreed.
 

AdamWW

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They do suggest that as these numbers are arbitrary due to a lack of evidence to provide a solid number.

They seem to be claiming that differences in approaches mean they are being made without evidence.

Just because there is no absolutely correct answer to how many people should be allowed to meet and whether to include children does not, in my view, mean that there is no justification.

Particularly when you're trying to choose the balance between impact on people's lives and on the spread of coronarivus.

It is inevitable that there will be different solutions.

That doesn't mean that limiting contact in households is therefore in itself unjustified.
 

greyman42

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Is there any proof that the recent cases are due to larger gatherings? It seems the main thing that has changed is that people are going out more, to shops, to pubs and to work. We've seen outbreaks in offices, factories and in pubs but not have been attributed to 15 people at a party as far as I'm aware. You can't meet as more than a six, unless you have a meeting room and an outlook invitation? A restriction on gatherings seems at best an attempt to try and trade off restrictions, and at worst an attempt by the government to shift the blame away from their policies and onto the impure souls who dare enjoy themselves.
Outbreaks involving pubs have been few and far between.
 
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