Is it unreasonable for retailers or TOCs such as XC to charge for collecting tickets from machines?

[156421]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #5 originally in this thread.

Well, you were ripped off when you booked in tghe first place, because Trainline charge a booking fee, something none of the TOCs do.

Follow Barry Doe's advice (RAIL magazine) and don't use Trainline.

I recall that XC does charge a fee of £1 if you want to print your tickets at a TVM. I really hope other TOCs don't follow suit.

 

[yorkie]

I recall that XC does charge a fee of £1 if you want to print your tickets at a TVM. I really hope other TOCs don't follow suit.

This charge is only applicable where alternatives exist; to be honest it is not unreasonable for passengers who choose to shun e-tickets to bear some of the cost, but £1 is more than the bill XC recieve from the TVM operator, so it's too much.

The forum's site doesn't charge such a fee; it just reduces the margins (in some cases resulting in a loss for the retailer).

 

[156421]

This charge is only applicable where alternatives exist; to be honest it is not unreasonable for passengers who choose to shun e-tickets to bear some of the cost, but £1 is more than the bill XC recieve from the TVM operator, so it's too much.

The forum's site doesn't charge such a fee; it just reduces the margins (in some cases resulting in a loss for the retailer).

Alternative point of view... it's not unreasonable for a passenger to expect a TOC to provide a paper ticket at no extra cost.

 

[AlterEgo]

Alternative point of view... it's not unreasonable for a passenger to expect a TOC to provide a paper ticket at no extra cost.

It's not an unreasonable request but also not unreasonable for them to say "actually no we will not foot the cost for printing your ticket on a dead tree from a giant machine which is plugged in 24/365".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Alternative point of view... it's not unreasonable for a passenger to expect a TOC to provide a paper ticket at no extra cost.

Why isn't it reasonable for a customer to be charged less for a means of delivery that is cheaper to the vendor? That happens all the time. For instance, if I order an item to collect from a store I'm normally not charged a fee, but if I order it for delivery I'm charged the cost of the delivery.

The base option is the lowest-cost one, an e-ticket. You pay more if you want them to print the e-ticket for you, and more still if you want them to do that AND post it to you.

Seems fair to me.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

It's not an unreasonable request but also not unreasonable for them to say "actually no we will not foot the cost for printing your ticket on a dead tree from a giant machine which is plugged in 24/365".

In the round of the railway's overall budget, it absolutely is. Given that the TVM exists and is internet-connected already - unless you're proposing abolishing TVMs, which would be an interesting position to take - what's the marginal cost of printing a ticket? 2p?

Why isn't it reasonable for a customer to be charged less for a means of delivery that is cheaper to the vendor? That happens all the time. For instance, if I order an item to collect from a store I'm normally not charged a fee, but if I order it for delivery I'm charged the cost of the delivery.

The base option is the lowest-cost one, an e-ticket. You pay more if you want them to print the e-ticket for you, and more still if you want them to do that AND post it to you.

Of course, "they" don't print the ticket for you at a TVM, because "they" is XC Trains Ltd and they don't run any stations.

 

[AlterEgo]

In the round of the railway's overall budget, it absolutely is. Given that the TVM exists and is internet-connected already - unless you're proposing abolishing TVMs, which would be an interesting position to take - what's the marginal cost of printing a ticket? 2p?

You'd need fewer inefficient and carbon-damaging TVMs if fewer people collected tickets from them. They're expensive to run - plugged in all day every day - and maintain. And the more printing it does, the quicker parts get life-expired and require replacement. Running 1500 TVMs instead of 700 really does make a difference, and given a S+B ticket machine costs something like £20,000 (an old figure from VTWC, ten years ago) for replacement it really does make a difference.

There are good reasons why even TOCs with TVMs want you to use e-tickets. Mostly, it's the actual cost of having a gigantic machine present to print something on a credit card sized piece of paper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, "they" don't print the ticket for you at a TVM, because "they" is XC Trains Ltd and they don't run any stations.

They have to pay the TOC a small sum for doing so.

 

[Peter0124]

Scotrail need to get with the times and start offering e-tickets. The app idea is stupid.

 

[BigB]

They have to pay the TOC a small sum for doing so.

Do you have a figure for this, just to see how reasonable the £1 surcharge is?
Of course reverse psychology would work well here, if sites offered a "discount" of £1 if taking an e-ticket!

 

[Adam Williams]

Do you have a figure for this, just to see how reasonable the £1 surcharge is?
Of course reverse psychology would work well here, if sites offered a "discount" of £1 if taking an e-ticket!

(a) • A variable fee rate of 0.50% shall be due on all ToD fulfilment transactions (CTR) with a value at or above £15. • For CTR values of less than £15, a fixed minimum fee of 7.5p per CTR shall be due. • For CTR values at or above £100, a fixed maximum fee of 50p per CTR shall be due.

There are, of course, other fixed costs to bear in mind to be able to insert CTRs in the first place as well as ongoing support costs to deal with print failures etc.

 

[Haywain]

given a S+B ticket machine costs something like £20,000

And that's just the up-front cost. On top of that will be an assortment of fixed charges from the supplier for keeping the things up to date, costs of linking to various data sources, software costs and staffing.

 

[BigB]

(a) • A variable fee rate of 0.50% shall be due on all ToD fulfilment transactions (CTR) with a value at or above £15. • For CTR values of less than £15, a fixed minimum fee of 7.5p per CTR shall be due. • For CTR values at or above £100, a fixed maximum fee of 50p per CTR shall be due.

There are, of course, other fixed costs to bear in mind to be able to insert CTRs in the first place as well as ongoing support costs to deal with print failures etc.

Thanks - for most transactions I buy then the £1 charge would be reasonable if an e-ticket option was available.

 

[Wallsendmag]

So which TOCs charge the £1 fee? XC do I know

 

[skyhigh]

So which TOCs charge the £1 fee? XC do I know

Grand Central do too.

 

[island]

As far as I know, Lumo won't offer ToD as an option at all where e-tickets are available. Neither will LNER on their app, and on their website you have to click "I don't have a phone or printer" to get ToD.

I think it's not unreasonable for TOCs that don't have any TVMs to charge a very moderate fee for ToD when an e-ticket is available. For those that do have TVMs the fees probably cancel out.

 

[crablab]

What is unreasonable is charging for ToD on cross-London tickets. It's not like the passenger has any choice...

I note that the Trainline corporate platform charges an amount for an eTicket (!!) but more for ToD. That does not reduce if ToD is the only option...

 

[Wallsendmag]

What is unreasonable is charging for ToD on cross-London tickets. It's not like the passenger has any choice...

I note that the Trainline corporate platform charges an amount for an eTicket (!!) but more for ToD. That does not reduce if ToD is the only option...

There should always be a free fulfilment option

 

[fandroid]

OK. Let's charge extra for buying tickets at a ticket office!
Conversely, I do rather like the idea of a small discount for using etickets.

 

[crablab]

There should always be a free fulfilment option

There is not on the corporate platform I use. Both eTicket and ToD are chargeable.

This may well be part of the contract for the platform - no idea.

 

[Haywain]

What is unreasonable is charging for ToD on cross-London tickets. It's not like the passenger has any choice..

Who does this? (see below)

There is not on the corporate platform I use. Both eTicket and ToD are chargeable.

This may well be part of the contract for the platform - no idea.

Corporate platforms are subject to specific contracts and can, essentially, do what they like.

 

[AlterEgo]

What is unreasonable is charging for ToD on cross-London tickets. It's not like the passenger has any choice...

XC only charges if you decline the option of an e ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

OK. Let's charge extra for buying tickets at a ticket office!

Nederlandse Spoorwegen have for years.

 

[crablab]

Corporate platforms are subject to specific contracts and can, essentially, do what they like.

Absolutely. Doesn't mean I can't think it unreasonable

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely. Doesn't mean I can't think it unreasonable

Usually there'll be benefits of those platforms e.g. reporting/statistics or preapproval, as otherwise the business wouldn't pay for them.

 

[miklcct]

Virgin Trains Ticketing charges a fee for a TOD even if TOD is the only available option.

 

[sheff1]

There are good reasons why even TOCs with TVMs want you to use e-tickets. Mostly, it's the actual cost of having a gigantic machine present to print something on a credit card sized piece of paper.

Why are the TVMs so big and seemingly getting ever bigger (if the latest Northern & TPE machines are anything to go by) ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why are the TVMs so big and seemingly getting ever bigger (if the latest Northern & TPE machines are anything to go by) ?

Those massive, unnecessary screens must sap power. A 12" Android tablet type screen is all that's needed.

 

[Haywain]

Those massive, unnecessary screens must sap power. A 12" Android tablet type screen is all that's needed.

I think they need to be a bit more accessible than that.

 

[Parjon]

London NorthWestern. I was very surprised to be offered a choice recently between a "free" e-ticket or £1 to collect from a machine.

As it was a walk up ticket I just bought from the station. For "free".