Is Our Hobby Becoming Destigmatized?

[Strat-tastic]

I visited the ECML on Saturday to enjoy seeing Alycidon on The Albert Gilmour Memorial Charter.
There was another chap, about my age, out to film it going past. Also, (I assume) three generations of a family. I got chatting to them and the grandma was asking me how to find the numbers on the 180 units (just found them myself!).
Grandad was taking numbers, and the young lad, about 12, seemed very keen to hang around afterwards when he learned about a 66 coming along on freight. He brought back, for me, that first feeling of excitement and delight on being round the railway, so I saw something of myself in him. Even his sister joined in and took a photograph.
Other times when out and about, passers-by ask me if anything special is coming along, which generally means a steam train, but still; interest is interest.
So, with more railway-themed TV programs perhaps being a reason, do you think interest in railways is becoming destigmatized? I think so, I hope so.

 

[AlistairCowell]

I pretty much hope so.

But yet, unfortunately people have got real lives and jobs to do, and most folk just don't have the time. Saturday is probably the post popular day for a lot of rail enthusiasts to see the trains as well as travelling. Plus new model railways products are generally at extortionate prices, which also dampens our rail enthusiasm.

 

[thedbdiboy]

I think an interest in trains is now rare enough amongst the general population that there is less of a stigma. Back in the 1950s every boy was a trainspotter in the same way that every kid has a games console these days. That was followed by a diminishing curve so that by the 80s/90s it was deemed a nerdy hobby but we've now reached the point where it's actually pretty obscure among younger people.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Niche interests generally are becoming more accepted, just as society at large is becoming more open-minded and tolerant about other differences. I didn't necessarily expect that rail enthusiasm would ever be something that wasn't the target of mockery, but it seems to be less of a target than it was. Perhaps if I were 25 years younger I wouldn't have spent my teens in the "trainspotter's closet"!

 

[mallard]

Amongst the general public? Sure, railway enthusiasm is becoming much more "acceptable", probably partially because these days, "spotters" are more likely to be taking photos than writing down numbers in notebooks and thereby making the hobby a branch of photography, which has always been a very "respectable" hobby.

Of course, amongst rail staff, enthusiasts are increasingly treated with derision and contempt. From rediculous claims that because they were standing next to the train at the time it was photographed, they somehow have the right to inspect and demand deletion of photos they don't like, to "security" concerns born of pure paranoia, to trying to have enthusiast passengers ejected from the station because they haven't "signed in" before taking a photo of the train they've just disembarked from, staff in general really make it clear that they don't like enthusiasts.

 

[Journeyman]

Amongst the general public? Sure, railway enthusiasm is becoming much more "acceptable", probably partially because these days, "spotters" are more likely to be taking photos than writing down numbers in notebooks and thereby making the hobby a branch of photography, which has always been a very "respectable" hobby.

Of course, amongst rail staff, enthusiasts are increasingly treated with derision and contempt. From rediculous claims that because they were standing next to the train at the time it was photographed, they somehow have the right to inspect and demand deletion of photos they don't like, to "security" concerns born of pure paranoia, to trying to have enthusiast passengers ejected from the station because they haven't "signed in" before taking a photo of the train they've just disembarked from, staff in general really make it clear that they don't like enthusiasts.

I've never had any problems with rail staff when out photographing/enjoying trains, nor did I back in the 80s and 90s when I used to go everywhere with a notebook and a Platform 5 combined volume. Generally, though, I'll pick quiet locations where there's not likely to be many people about if I want to take lots of pictures with an SLR. Quite apart from anything else, it's easier to get shots without people getting in the way.

I tended to find when I was younger that generally trainspotters got left alone - only on one occasion did a bunch of lads on a train start making derogatory comments, when I was in my teens, but I ignored them, kept my head down and moved, and didn't get any more trouble.

I think a particularly difficult period to be an enthusiast/spotter was when someone high-profile (I forget who it was) claimed that we were all autistic, because of our need to obsessively record/order stuff. Certainly I think some rail enthusiasts do fit into that category - there's a guy who shall remain nameless who winds up just about everyone on various sites with his behaviour who clearly is on the spectrum somewhere, and gets abusive towards others on a regular basis - but the majority of us just like trains, and there's nowt wrong with that. It certainly doesn't indicate a condition or syndrome.

For some interesting commentary on this, read "Platform Souls" by Nicholas Whittaker, which is a great and often quite funny trainspotting autobiography.

Back when I was a kid, I was a member of RailRiders and got quite a lot out of it, and it's a shame that the industry isn't promoting enthusiasm like that any more - I'm sure it probably drummed up a fair bit of business for BR.

 

[gazthomas]

I would say, there is so much more coverage of a positive nature these days

 

[FQTV]

For some interesting commentary on this, read "Platform Souls" by Nicholas Whittaker, which is a great and often quite funny trainspotting autobiography.

It is indeed a lovely book; some parts of it I actually found quite emotional, as it reminded me very much of some of my own, largely forgotten, experiences.

Back when I was a kid, I was a member of RailRiders and got quite a lot out of it, and it's a shame that the industry isn't promoting enthusiasm like that any more - I'm sure it probably drummed up a fair bit of business for BR.

Me too, and I agree. Mind you, there's perhaps a mild irony in the industry largely ignoring children now, yet (currently) two train operating companies seeming to obsessively treat adults like them.

I would say, there is so much more coverage of a positive nature these days

I agree with this as well. My personal barometer is the growing number of friends and family who are willing to buy me railway-related books, and they do so in public shops!

Nary a furtive glance, a brown paper bag, a mac, trilby or dark glasses to be seen, apparently.

 

[matt_world2004]

Ive seen in the last few weeks spotters almost pretending to be dispatch staff shouting at customers to stand behind the yellow line and to hurry up the train is about to leave . this is despite customers at the time standing behind the yellow line and said train not leaving for five minutes

This undermines the credibility issue by a long way

That being said. There was a few bus spotters at harrow on the hill recently. They got treated well by the tfl staff /bus operators there .

 

[DenmarkRail]

In general, when I look at this in a number of ways, I see this:

Scenario 1: People always ask "whats the point" or "why do you do that", and then I simply reply something like "why do you play cricket" etc, and it starts a genuine conversation about hobbies.

Scenario 2: People ask the same questions, but in a more rude way. When you try to contest them, they'll reply something like "because its not a weird hobby" or "because I'm normal"... When you try to contest them, they throw back rude stuff, so you just leave it and get along.

Scenario 3: People are genuinely interested, and want to see your photos, and want to ask stuff about whats your favourite train etc.

With all that being said, I tend to prefer railways over trains

 

[bramling]

I've never had any problems with rail staff when out photographing/enjoying trains, nor did I back in the 80s and 90s when I used to go everywhere with a notebook and a Platform 5 combined volume. Generally, though, I'll pick quiet locations where there's not likely to be many people about if I want to take lots of pictures with an SLR. Quite apart from anything else, it's easier to get shots without people getting in the way.

I tended to find when I was younger that generally trainspotters got left alone - only on one occasion did a bunch of lads on a train start making derogatory comments, when I was in my teens, but I ignored them, kept my head down and moved, and didn't get any more trouble.

I think a particularly difficult period to be an enthusiast/spotter was when someone high-profile (I forget who it was) claimed that we were all autistic, because of our need to obsessively record/order stuff. Certainly I think some rail enthusiasts do fit into that category - there's a guy who shall remain nameless who winds up just about everyone on various sites with his behaviour who clearly is on the spectrum somewhere, and gets abusive towards others on a regular basis - but the majority of us just like trains, and there's nowt wrong with that. It certainly doesn't indicate a condition or syndrome.

For some interesting commentary on this, read "Platform Souls" by Nicholas Whittaker, which is a great and often quite funny trainspotting autobiography.

Back when I was a kid, I was a member of RailRiders and got quite a lot out of it, and it's a shame that the industry isn't promoting enthusiasm like that any more - I'm sure it probably drummed up a fair bit of business for BR.

I think autism is a condition which is quite widely misunderstood. It’s mainly a sensory condition more so than anything else, and whilst it may make individuals more likely to become interested in finer details, I don’t think the link between autism and railway enthusiasm is anything like as much as some might think. Many people have hobbies which involve collecting sets of things or whatever, which in most cases don’t attract a label of being called autistic.

There may be a slight connection with solitary activities simply because the sensory issues associated with autism tend to alienate such people over time, but this runs rather deeper than hobby selection.

 

[47802]

Ive seen in the last few weeks spotters almost pretending to be dispatch staff shouting at customers to stand behind the yellow line and to hurry up the train is about to leave . this is despite customers at the time standing behind the yellow line and said train not leaving for five minutes

This undermines the credibility issue by a long way

That being said. There was a few bus spotters at harrow on the hill recently. They got treated well by the tfl staff /bus operators there .

There is no credibility to being a Rail Enthusiast and anybody who thinks its more acceptable now than 30 years ago I think are deluded.

As an aside what is with this shouting at people to stand behind the yellow line, more H&S to extremes I got this a Preston a few weeks ago, a dispatch guy shouting virtually in my ear, good grief we never used to get this kind of nonsense, and of course years ago there was the danger by being hit by a door being opened before the train stopped.

 

[Ianno87]

There is no credibility to being a Rail Enthusiast and anybody who thinks its more acceptable now than 30 years ago I think are deluded.

As an aside what is with this shouting at people to stand behind the yellow line, more H&S to extremes I got this a Preston a few weeks ago, a dispatch guy shouting virtually in my ear, good grief we never used to get this kind of nonsense, and of course years ago there was the danger by being hit by a door being opened before the train stopped.

The statistics probably show that more people, funnily enough, got injured 30 years ago from Platform Train Interface accidents.

What is even the advantage of standing over the yellow line anyway? Literally just exposing yourself to needless danger for no reason.

Yellow line also aids line of sight for dispatch on a busy platform, of course.

 

[richw]

I think there are still a lot more people with some interest than we realise!
I’ve accidentally found out several colleagues have some interest. There were 5 or 6 of us at work chatting about trains not long ago (on a department of about 50 people). Some of the others in that conversation knew very detailed technical stuff!

 

[47802]

The statistics probably show that more people, funnily enough, got injured 30 years ago from Platform Train Interface accidents.

What is even the advantage of standing over the yellow line anyway? Literally just exposing yourself to needless danger for no reason.

Yellow line also aids line of sight for dispatch on a busy platform, of course.

I never said there was an advantage however I don't need a member of staff shouting in my ear hole, as I happened to be stood near him if they really must do that that use the PA system.

 

[The Ham]

Just as aside technical everyone is somewhere on the Autistic spectrum somewhere, it's just that there's a lot of people who are very much towards the unaffected end of it. Although it's just people use the term as a shorthand to apply to those who are impacted by it.

It would be a bit like saying people are on the skin colour spectrum and excluding yourself from it because you are white British.

 

[silverfoxcc]

However Twitchers get BBC coverage when a lesser spotted white throated, green blackbird appears form China after being blown off course halfway around the world, and hundreds flock to tramp over peoples gardens to get picture of it being eaten by next doors cat or something, it makes the 6 o'clock news

Now i have a foot in both camps, member of RSPB and Wetlands. and of the GER/GNSR/ RCTS Gresley Trust and local Railway club ( live steam section) I find i relaxing watching birds from a hide. as much as sitting by the side of a track watching trains go by. BUT sitting in a hide listening to twitchers doing the 'what i have spotted' routine, does make me chuckle, to them a rare bird is just a tick in a book. And i did the equivalent of that last year by doing a coast to coast across the USA doing Railroad museums ( Talks available!!)
I just let people with hobbies get on with them as long as it isnt forced down my neck a night at a ballet would have me putting needles in my eyes, but fair play to those who enjoy it

 

[thruud]

I'm not, and never have been a trainspotter, but as a lifelong wargamer do recognise the similar feelings of being a bit 'different'. I think acceptance is on the rise because the Internet has helped build communities and generated a groundswell of interest in previously fairly niche or obscure areas. The boardgame/wargame industry is currently going through a boom time due in part to easier accessibility to information.

I don't think the need to collect numbers is autism, but I do believe that there is a (usually but not exclusively) male tendency to want to catalogue, understand and structure knowledge on a subject - be it sport, trains, birds, real ale or other such activities. There is something rather satisfying about building structure and understanding which many people can relate to. Trainspotting is just one manifestation of this.

 

[RichJF]

I think it helps that are a number of railway related megaprojects going on in the UK that has contributed to general acceptance of the rail scene and transport subjects in recent years.
The much publicised Crossrail project, the media-centric London Bridge rebuild, electrification of many lines etc, Bridging the Gap, Bluebell extension.
It also helps that a number of celebrities and media personalities have done programmes on the railways which has aided wider acceptance of communities who enjoy trains and railways. General documentaries on the Tube, Paddington station & Kings Cross also help.
Look at the ScotRail social media feeds: People are really looking forward to trips on the new Happy Trains/365s that I've not seen for ages.

 

[Journeyman]

I'm not, and never have been a trainspotter, but as a lifelong wargamer do recognise the similar feelings of being a bit 'different'. I think acceptance is on the rise because the Internet has helped build communities and generated a groundswell of interest in previously fairly niche or obscure areas. The boardgame/wargame industry is currently going through a boom time due in part to easier accessibility to information.

I don't think the need to collect numbers is autism, but I do believe that there is a (usually but not exclusively) male tendency to want to catalogue, understand and structure knowledge on a subject - be it sport, trains, birds, real ale or other such activities. There is something rather satisfying about building structure and understanding which many people can relate to. Trainspotting is just one manifestation of this.

Certainly agree with all of that - the Internet has made it much easier to meet other people with similar interests, access information about hobbies and generally experience things in a richer way.

The "structuring information" thing makes a lot of sense. I think my interest in railways has come about because I've always been extremely curious about the world around me, and always want to know how things work. I tend to notice little differences in things. The people I've met who are most cynical, about my own hobby and a whole heap of others, are the ones who have no interest in anything at all beyond the end of their own nose.

 

[bramling]

Certainly agree with all of that - the Internet has made it much easier to meet other people with similar interests, access information about hobbies and generally experience things in a richer way.

The "structuring information" thing makes a lot of sense. I think my interest in railways has come about because I've always been extremely curious about the world around me, and always want to know how things work. I tend to notice little differences in things. The people I've met who are most cynical, about my own hobby and a whole heap of others, are the ones who have no interest in anything at all beyond the end of their own nose.

There's a certain irony that railways can actually be a *very* diverse hobby, although granted not everyone takes it in this way. There's a lot of different aspects besides the stereotypical collecting numbers -- station architecture, engineering, how things work, people stories, etc etc etc. From a person point of view, being into railways has taken me to a lot of places I probably wouldn't otherwise have been to, which on occasions has led me to interesting non-railway things which I wouldn't otherwise have found.

 

[Journeyman]

There's a certain irony that railways can actually be a *very* diverse hobby, although granted not everyone takes it in this way. There's a lot of different aspects besides the stereotypical collecting numbers -- station architecture, engineering, how things work, people stories, etc etc etc. From a person point of view, being into railways has taken me to a lot of places I probably wouldn't otherwise have been to, which on occasions has led me to interesting non-railway things which I wouldn't otherwise have found.

Well, my interest has evolved over the years. I started off as a fairly typical number-collecting trainspotter, but soon it became more about visiting new places and the bigger experiences that brings with it. I gave up the spotting but remain very fond of a good rail journey, and it now combines with my other interests in terms of history, culture, engineering, photography, travel etc.

 

[Dieseldriver]

I never said there was an advantage however I don't need a member of staff shouting in my ear hole, as I happened to be stood near him if they really must do that that use the PA system.

Probably because if something were to happen, his actions would be scrutinised Pretty simple and it surprises me that you wouldn't consider that. My personal viewpoint is that someone trespassing or standing near the edge of a platform should be responsible for their own actions. However, as a member of Railway staff my personal opinion would be irrelevant if they came to any harm.

 

[class387]

The 'collecting numbers' is quite an annoying stereotype. A typical conversation to my classmates about 'trainspotting' (railway enthusiasm) would go like this:

"What's the point of writing down serial numbers?"
"There is none."
"Why do you do it then?"
"I don't"
"(sarcastic) Sure you don't."

I'm sure if it was about different types of loco it would be no different to a Petrolhead or Avgeek, and that if it was different scenic lines no different to river cruising, but writing down numbers as a concept doesn't make sense to most people.

 

[Master29]

Just as aside technical everyone is somewhere on the Autistic spectrum somewhere, it's just that there's a lot of people who are very much towards the unaffected end of it. Although it's just people use the term as a shorthand to apply to those who are impacted by it.

It would be a bit like saying people are on the skin colour spectrum and excluding yourself from it because you are white British.

A while ago I would have reacted to what you`ve said here but I undertsand what you are saying. Everyone has autistic traits but ironically, I think the electro magnetic spectrum would be a good example to use. Visible light only encompasses a small part of the EMS whilst the majority of it is neither visible or audible to us mortals; much like with people.

 

[Mikey C]

It depends on what you mean by "our hobby"

There's no stigma about being interested in transport, whether rail, cars, canals etc. The vast number of rail journey type programmes on TV, all presented by "credible" people like Palin, Portillo or Tarrant, plus all the behind the scenes programmes (Crossrail, London Underground, Paddington station etc) show that interest in railways is mainstream.

By contrast, there is still a certain stigma about trainspotting, though no more than most "anoraky" hobbies.

 

[Wivenswold]

If the Hipster Culture has done anything it's made interests in niche things cool. Take the "guilty pleasures" concept that was embraced by music fans. 20 years ago you wouldn't have found a marquee of serious musos at a festival all gleefully singing along to Karma Chameleon because, you know, that's so uncool.

I kept my interest in trains secret throughout my adult life. In recent times I've been open about it and now I find friends on Facebook and in social situations asking me technical questions about railways and actually listening and appreciating a detailed answer. In these dumbed-down days, authoritative knowledge is king.

And thank you "Journeyman" you've summed it up perfectly.

 

[cuccir]

I was going to post something similar to Wivenswold; I think that hobbies have become less stigmatized. The internet has encouraged people to seek out others with similar interests and made it easier to engage in hobbies without being an obsessive. 'Nerdy' hobbies in particular have benefited - I think we can trace that back to the financial success of the Lord of the Rings series, and also the correlation between nerdy hobbies and interest in new tech, and so an ability to exploit the web, podcasts, social media etc.

At the same time, 'mainstream' culture has suffered: in 1997 the top rated TV programmes had viewing figures of over 18 million. In 2017, that was down to 14 million. The top 40 singles chart used to be a major news item, featured on prime-time TV. Now it barely registers.

So I think there's much more acceptance that people have their niche interests.

 

[Strat-tastic]

It depends on what you mean by "our hobby".

I tried to keep it as broad as possible, knowing that folk here have diverse interests in the railway.

 

[theblackwatch]

So I think there's much more acceptance that people have their niche interests.

I think there's a more general acceptance of diversity now than there was even 10 years ago. It isn't that long ago that a pop star would be outed as being gay in the front page of the Sunday papers and it would be almost treat as some national scandal. Nowadays, I doubt that would happen. In reality, the hobby (even collecting numbers) is no more different to a lot of other interests - there are people who tick off beers, try to visit every football ground, travel to as many countries as possible etc. In Malta I came across an american couple who were trying to visit all the Temples on the island. In many cases the reason for doing this sort of thing is a sense of personal achievement, and it can be combined with other interests too.