Is the Alderley Edge stopper really necessary?

[Philip]

With capacity through Castlefield and Manchester South being a problem, one service that sticks out as being surplus to requirements is the above. Why does it need to go further south than Manchester Victoria? Forgetting rail user groups wanting direct services to Manchester Piccadily, what is the point of it?

Wilmslow is adequately served without it, Alderley doesn't need 2 trains per hour never mind 3; likewise for Handforth and Cheadle Hulme can manage with a half hourly service. The stops between Stockport and Manchester can be served by other services and the Stockport-Bolton half hourly connection can be reduced to hourly.

 

[py_megapixel]

At peak times yes it is. ALL trains south from Piccadilly are packed after about 1630.

At off-peak times more questionable, but still on balance probably worth keeping.

Handforth only has the Alderley stopper and 1 extra train per hour so it would be downgraded to an hourly service. Can't imagine that going down well since they also recently lost their direct bus to Manchester.

The obvious solution is to terminate the Southport stopper at Victoria, then use the diagram south of Piccadilly to run a 323 as far as Wilmslow. That has the additonal benefit of reducing diesel under the wires.

 

[Ianno87]

AIUI, it basically exists to give two trains per hour Bolton-Stockport (the other being the Hazel Grove-Preston/Blackpool), plus giving Sandgrounders a link to Oxford Road/Piccadilly without having to get off and on the same platform at Bolton or Salford Crescent.

It would need something to do at Victoria if it were diverted there; that doesn't have many options avaialble. It would be sat there for ~50 minutes if it terminated (the trains cross each other at Ordsall Lane at present, very neatly in a parallel move)

 

[jfollows]

The obvious solution is to terminate the Southport stopper at Victoria, then use the diagram south of Piccadilly to run a 323 as far as Wilmslow. That has the additonal benefit of reducing diesel under the wires.

I agree completely, this means reverting to the pre-2018 timetable which provided a good service which has been replaced since then with an unreliable service with dreadful rolling stock compared to what we had before. And it's the obvious solution, as you say also.
BUT this is a discussion which has taken place about 37 times on this forum since May 2018, I exaggerate only a little I suspect. It doesn't come to any obvious conclusion (it gets bogged down with other considerations which are quite valid, such as the 'need' for Southport line passengers to have a direct service to Piccadilly) , other than that what we have today doesn't work, which we already know.

Also, given that in 1971 Alderley Edge had four trains an hour and Handforth had two trains an hour, the main requirement of the service is to serve these stations more than any other, and I don't see a reduction in service frequency, especially at Handforth down to hourly, as acceptable. Mind you, hourly remains the frequency at Bramhall and Poynton, but they've never had a more frequent service.

 

[Philip]

Handforth is an area of Wilmslow...if people aren't happy with an hourly frequency then they can use the station down the road. That is why Clifton only has one train a day, because Swinton Station is nearby with a greater frequency.

 

[py_megapixel]

Handforth is an area of Wilmslow...if people aren't happy with an hourly frequency then they can use the station down the road. That is why Clifton only has one train a day, because Swinton Station is nearby with a greater frequency.

It really isn't... it's 2 miles away. 35 minutes on foot, and that's if you take a boring, noisy, trafficy route down a main road.

If you're getting in a car to drive the opposite direction to get a train to Manchester, then you might as well just drive to Manchester.

If you are advocating not running the Southport stopper through Castlefield, then what do you have against using the diagram south of Manchester for an Alderley stopper?

 

[A0]

Handforth is an area of Wilmslow...if people aren't happy with an hourly frequency then they can use the station down the road. That is why Clifton only has one train a day, because Swinton Station is nearby with a greater frequency.

Slightly disingenuous that - take a look at a map, it's not like it's that easy to get to Wilmslow station from Handforth. According to Google Maps it's almost a 40 minute walk. It's pretty much the same distance to Heald Green station.

 

[43096]

Also, given that in 1971 Alderley Edge had four trains an hour and Handforth had two trains an hour, the main requirement of the service is to serve these stations more than any other, and I don't see a reduction in service frequency, especially at Handforth down to hourly, as acceptable. Mind you, hourly remains the frequency at Bramhall and Poynton, but they've never had a more frequent service.

It was much later than that the 4tph to Alderley Edge finished, sometime in the 80s I’d say. It was something like 2tph Alderley-Altrincham via Styal, 1tph Alderley-Altrincham via Stockport and 1tph Crewe-Altrincham via Stockport. All four went through Oxford Road, though there were fewer trains back then on other routes.

 

[Sweetjesus]

I use the Alderley Edge stopper a lot and I don't think it's necessary either. Recent introduction of 6 coach class 331 alleviated the overcrowding problem a lot.

Perhaps the Handforth issue can be resolved by having a stopper between Crewe and Stockport? There is roughly 5 minute frequency between Stockport and Manchester, I don't think having to change would pose a big problem for the passengers.

 

[py_megapixel]

I use the Alderley Edge stopper a lot and I don't think it's necessary either. Recent introduction of 6 coach class 331 alleviated the overcrowding problem a lot.

Yes, but not all services are 6 car. Also, one train per hour simply isn't frequent enough for a busy commuter route.

If the Alderley stopper was to be withdrawn, then at the very least the Stoke stopper would have to be retimed to stop it running 10 minutes behind the Crewe one from Cheadle Hulme.

Perhaps the Handforth issue can be resolved by having a stopper between Crewe and Stockport? There is roughly 5 minute frequency between Stockport and Manchester, I don't think having to change would pose a big problem for the passengers.

If you're going to bother with that then why not run all the way into Manchester? There's not even a terminating bay at Stockport for that direction so you'd have to find platform capacity as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Handforth is an area of Wilmslow...if people aren't happy with an hourly frequency then they can use the station down the road. That is why Clifton only has one train a day, because Swinton Station is nearby with a greater frequency.

Clifton isn't "near" Swinton in a local rail sense - these are stations you walk to, not drive to.

The reason Clifton has a Parliamentary service is that it isn't very useful - it's a fair way up a massive hill from the area it serves. But with more housebuilding there is an argument that it's now tending towards needing a useful service again.

 

[jfollows]

If you're going to bother with that then why not run all the way into Manchester? There's not even a terminating bay at Stockport for that direction so you'd have to find platform capacity as well.

Indeed, and I'll say it before someone else does, that it'd suit me fine (except for the dreadful rolling stock the service would be lumbered with) if the service went from Stockport via Denton and Manchester Victoria, but those in the know say there's no capacity left at Heaton Norris Junction for the down service to cross to enable this service. Again, I'm only repeating what I recall from previous discussion on the same subject.

 

[py_megapixel]

Indeed, and I'll say it before someone else does, that it'd suit me fine if the service went from Stockport via Denton and Manchester Victoria, but those in the know say there's no capacity left at Heaton Norris Junction for the down service to cross to enable this service. Again, I'm only repeating what I recall from previous discussion on the same subject.

It would probably make more sense to send one of the Buxton services round that way, since they already have to be diesel, and then use the path freed up.

However that's a bit of a moot point if the capacity to cross over isn't there.

 

[Sweetjesus]

Yes, but not all services are 6 car. Also, one train per hour simply isn't frequent enough for a busy commuter route.

If the Alderley stopper was to be withdrawn, then at the very least the Stoke stopper would have to be retimed to stop it running 10 minutes behind the Crewe one from Cheadle Hulme.


If you're going to bother with that then why not run all the way into Manchester? There's not even a terminating bay at Stockport for that direction so you'd have to find platform capacity as well.

I misspoke, you're correct that not all services are 6 car but where and when it's needed, it's 6 car service - i.e. it's timed to serve biggest stations at their busiest times.

I would expected someone to mention platform capacity issue at Stockport, it appears that the platform are vacant between xx:45 and xx:13 (excluding Alderley stopper) but now I realise this will definitely cause a timetabling havoc, the subject I don't feel clever enough to discuss about.

Yes, it would be easier to go all the way into Manchester but isn't the entire point of this thread relieving the Castlefield corridor and Manchester South problem?

 

[Philip]

Buxton services could use platform 0 at Stockport and then run on the bi-directional up line as far as Heaton Norris.

 

[jfollows]

I misspoke, you're correct that not all services are 6 car but where and when it's needed, it's 6 car service - i.e. it's timed to serve biggest stations at their busiest times.

So, off topic slightly, I've never seen a 6-car service on the Crewe line, is this something new? I haven't been on a train since February. Are there 6-car EMU diagrams these days? I think I'd heard of one on Blackpool-Hazel Grove but I could be wrong there, and then there were lots of reasons why platforms are too short elsewhere when I last saw the discussion. But I'd be interested to know if that's changed now.

 

[peters]

At peak times yes it is. ALL trains south from Piccadilly are packed after about 1630.

That doesn't mean a service to Alderley Edge is the best use of a path. The services which call at Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel are obviously the ones which will leave Piccadilly the fullest. I think what's needed is an electric train every 15 minutes out of Piccadilly calling at those stations and personally I think one of those services should be a semi-fast to Stoke, running half an hour after a stopper to Macclesfield. The Crewe stopper could then be one of the other services. Question is what should be the fourth be? Is running a train only as far as Alderley Edge (or Hazel Grove) a good idea when paths are scarce?

Perhaps the Handforth issue can be resolved by having a stopper between Crewe and Stockport? There is roughly 5 minute frequency between Stockport and Manchester, I don't think having to change would pose a big problem for the passengers.

It doesn't always work well for the passengers who use the Chester to Stockport services (when they are running.) Northbound there can be complaints about the train spending ages sat at the signalling box just before Stockport due to the train 'arriving early' i.e. it's taken the correct amount of time but the timetable allows for it to get delayed by 5 minutes between the last two stations and consequently the platform isn't available until other services have left. Then southbound it relies on the connecting train not being delayed or you have a 30 minute wait at Stockport.

 

[jonnyfan]

Stations between Stockport and Alderley Edge certainly do justify a 2nd train per hour, not just for Manchester but for the local journeys in between. Southport to Alderley Edge should be split, Southport to Oxford Road (which during the temporary timetable terminated in platform 3, and seemed to work pretty well) and a separate Piccadilly to Alderley Edge stopper - purely from a reliability stand point and it gets 323s back on the Alderley route, a far more suitable type of traction

 

[Tomnick]

Buxton services could use platform 0 at Stockport and then run on the bi-directional up line as far as Heaton Norris.

There isn't a bi-directional line between Stockport and Heaton Norris?

 

[Ianno87]

There isn't a bi-directional line between Stockport and Heaton Norris?

No, there definitely isn't.

 

[Tomnick]

No, there definitely isn't.

I know, sorry, it wasn't really a question!

(thought I'd better point that out for the benefit of anyone reading this who knows that I sign the route!)

 

[peters]

Stations between Stockport and Alderley Edge certainly do justify a 2nd train per hour, not just for Manchester but for the local journeys in between.

How many local journeys are there by train? What used to be a half-hourly bus between Alderley Edge and Cheadle via Wilmslow and Handforth no longer exists due to demand dropping over the past few years, despite all the problems with Northern reliability and RMT strikes and despite high quality Arriva Sapphire buses being used on the route.

 

[py_megapixel]

despite high quality Arriva Sapphire buses being used on the route.

High quality Sapphire buses ran for a while but it was overpriced, slow and the drivers didn't have a clue how to issue the correct tickets. (I have friends living in the area and occasionally tried to use the bus while visiting them; it was hopeless). And after a few years the buses were replaced with bog standard and rather worn out Optares.

 

[Starmill]

The cut from half-hourly to hourly shouldn't be underestimated. It will tip the balance in so many cases. Half-hourly is a practical minimum for all local journeys that should be aimed for everywhere, with necessary infrastructure to support it. It's just not useful enough otherwise. Of course in most places there would be a dedicated way for local traffic between Alderley Edge and somewhere on the other side of the city centre, that doesn't share track capacity with long-distance trains from Wales, London etc coming into Manchester.

 

[peters]

High quality Sapphire buses ran for a while but it was overpriced, slow and the drivers didn't have a clue how to issue the correct tickets. (I have friends living in the area and occasionally tried to use the bus while visiting them; it was hopeless). And after a few years the buses were replaced with bog standard and rather worn out Optares.

Public transport isn't cheap in Cheshire generally, unless you can travel a lengthy distance on a bus operator's day ticket. Alderley Edge to Wilmslow is up to £4 return on the train, it's under 2 miles so you could easily walk instead!

 

[AMD]

The obvious solution is to terminate the Southport stopper at Victoria

Not going to happen. The Southport line link into Piccadilly is a substantial political 'football', as was demonstrated when it was proposed to be removed in the May 18 timetable change. The only change that could happen would be to send it somewhere other than Alderley Edge from Piccadilly.

 

[Ianno87]

Not going to happen. The Southport line link into Piccadilly is a substantial political 'football', as was demonstrated when it was proposed to be removed in the May 18 timetable change. The only change that could happen would be to send it somewhere other than Alderley Edge from Piccadilly.

I think if Castlefield is going to be properly sorted in the short term, then the industry is going to have to stand up and tell people it can't connect everywhere to everywhere directly.

 

[geoffk]

AIUI, it basically exists to give two trains per hour Bolton - Stockport (the other being the Hazel Grove-Preston/Blackpool)..................

Coming north, the Hazel Grove - Blackpool N and Alderley Edge - Southport are between 5 and 10 minutes apart at Stockport, going south they are around 10 minutes apart at Bolton. So two trains an hour but in practice not much better than hourly.

 

[py_megapixel]

Not going to happen. The Southport line link into Piccadilly is a substantial political 'football', as was demonstrated when it was proposed to be removed in the May 18 timetable change. The only change that could happen would be to send it somewhere other than Alderley Edge from Piccadilly.

Quite frankly, that's stupid.
The demand for a direct SOP-PIC connection is - and has been for a while now - actually reducing quality of service elsewhere.

Why not just tell the people on that line to stuff it? If they really want to get to Piccadilly they can change at Bolton, or at Victoria, or in Salford. Meanwhile, for the main shopping & leisure destinations of the city, Victoria is actually more convenient. What's going on here is like running trains from Leeds to Euston because people won't accept a few minutes on the Northern Line or a short walk along Euston Road. It's daft.

 

[Ianno87]

Coming north, the Hazel Grove - Blackpool N and Alderley Edge - Southport are between 5 and 10 minutes apart at Stockport, going south they are around 10 minutes apart at Bolton. So two trains an hour but in practice not much better than hourly.

Another consequence of having 1tph from everywhere to everywhere. Not possible to do that *and* keep neat half-hourly services for shorter flows.