Is the chord that links HS1 towards Waterloo still in use?

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ptreanor

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The "Waterloo Connection" runs between Southfleet Juncton on HS1 and Fawkham Junction on the Chatham Main Line, it largely follows the route of the old Gravesend West Branch and it is still open (but is seldom used). It is electrified with 25kV catenary with cab signalling at the HS1 end and 750v conductor rail with lineside signals at the other (with a short overlap of both systems in the middle). North of London trains would never have used it, instead going all the way to (or just short of) St Pancras International.
 

DelW

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considering the TVM signaling requirements for HS1 im pretty sure we will never see railtours along HS1
In the early 2000s the then Hertfordshire Rail Tours ran several charters using Eurostar sets, and running over a mixture of high speed and "classic" lines in France and Belgium. Those I know of all went from Waterloo International, but the later ones ran over the link onto the eastern section of HS1.
Of course it's very unlikely such a trip could be run today, as it would mean reinstating 3rd rail shoes and maybe other equipment on one of the remaining 373 sets. Plus although I think the Nine Elms flyover is still usable, I don't think a Eurostar set would still fit in the ex-International platforms at Waterloo.
 

BluePenguin

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considering the TVM signaling requirements for HS1 im pretty sure we will never see railtours along HS1
We might if they are done in a 395 or one of the other trains that support cab signalling. Personally I wouldn't mind a railtour from Ashford International down Fawkham Junction to Waterloo International for old times sake.

Many people under 30 probably never travelled on Eurostar that way before HS1 fully opened. It would be a nice trip for the nostalgia and allow everyone to see how far we have come in comparison to today.
 

carriageline

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I’m fairly sure at one point they put temporary buffer stops on the line at the Victoria end. Back when they are stabling the Eurostar stock there
 

Class 170101

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In the early 2000s the then Hertfordshire Rail Tours ran several charters using Eurostar sets, and running over a mixture of high speed and "classic" lines in France and Belgium. Those I know of all went from Waterloo International, but the later ones ran over the link onto the eastern section of HS1.
Of course it's very unlikely such a trip could be run today, as it would mean reinstating 3rd rail shoes and maybe other equipment on one of the remaining 373 sets. Plus although I think the Nine Elms flyover is still usable, I don't think a Eurostar set would still fit in the ex-International platforms at Waterloo.
Nine Elms flyover is still useable and was used Christmas 2018 and subsequently (IIRC) for South Eastern to reach Waterloo International instead of their usual termini.

UK Railtours have used Class 395s over the link in the last few years.
 

MarkyT

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Were Class 92's TVM fitted? If they were you might be able to run a Charter with one of them.
They definitely all were originally, and the ones that work through the tunnel must still be TVM430 equipped. Others such as the sleeper ones may have had it removed. TVM fitment also implies KVB capability on board, as the latter sets up the former when entering a TVM line. Class 92s were intended to haul the Nightstar sleepers from St Pancras International, so tunnel-capable ones should still be able to work into the terminal, and through Ashford station to and from HS1.
 

ptreanor

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They definitely all were originally, and the ones that work through the tunnel must still be TVM430 equipped. Others such as the sleeper ones may have had it removed. TVM fitment also implies KVB capability on board, as the latter sets up the former when entering a TVM line. Class 92s were intended to haul the Nightstar sleepers from St Pancras International, so tunnel-capable ones should still be able to work into the terminal, and through Ashford station to and from HS1.
The Class 92 locos are NOT equipped with KVB train protection.
 

urpert

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It wouldn't surprise me if on high-speed lines grade seperation was actually cheaper in the long term. High speed turnouts are not cheap to buy and maintain and a flat junction needs twice as many of them as a grade seperated one (or a diamond crossover, but my understanding is that those are even more of a maintinance headache).

Obviously grade seperation has civils costs, but building a new high speed railway involves a bunch of civils work anyway and depending on the lie of the land the grade seperation may not be all that much extra work.
May well be true - the ‘temporary’ end of the LGV Atlantique just east of Le Mans was similarly built as a grade-separated junction even though it would take another 20 years before the ‘through lines’ were completed.
 

4-SUB 4732

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Sort of thing you could imagine could potentially accommodate a service in future using something like 395s half-hourly from, say, Victoria and Bromley South then fast to Trashford and onwards. Connectivity would be good, if nothing else.
 

Gostav

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I bought Railway Track Diagrams Southern & TfL and the page 5 shows Waterloo Connection is OOU (Out Of Use)
20200504001129.jpg
 

charlesn132

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They definitely all were originally, and the ones that work through the tunnel must still be TVM430 equipped. Others such as the sleeper ones may have had it removed. TVM fitment also implies KVB capability on board, as the latter sets up the former when entering a TVM line. Class 92s were intended to haul the Nightstar sleepers from St Pancras International, so tunnel-capable ones should still be able to work into the terminal, and through Ashford station to and from HS1.
The Class 92 locos are NOT equipped with KVB train protection.
In fact I remember reading that AWS was fitted on the French side of the Channel Tunnel for the benefit of class 92s:
Three different signalling systems presented themselves: BR's Automatic Warning System (AWS); Eurotunnel's Transmission Voie-Machine 430 (TVM 430); and SNCF's "Crocodile" train protection system, the latter used on the so-called "classic" French lines. The Class 92 was equipped with the former two: since it had been decided that the fleet would travel no further than Calais on the French side of the operation, SNCF agreed to install BR's AWS at Fréthun and through to Calais Ville station.
 

MarkyT

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I thought it was Crocodile that wasn't fitted to the 92s, hence the AWS magnets around the Calais area. If they had no KVB they would have had no protection at all around St Pancras as that definitely didn't have AWS or TPWS. KVB was still fairly new in France when Channel Tunnel was first opened and most areas still only had Crocodile, which is functionally equivalent to AWS but instead of magnets uses a metal brush under the loco making electrical contact with a raised metal ramp between the rails. I know KVB was used to enable TVM as I regularly attended various meetings reviewing signalling scheme plans for Railtrack/Network Rail interfaces with CTRL. After Fawkham Jn on Phase 1 for instance, a Eurostar exiting the classic network would pass over a special series of KVB digital balises (very similar to the later eurobalises) which would automatically enable the TVM equipment on board. A similar process coming the other way would switch off the TVM. These arrangements also applied at the interfaces at Dollands Moor/Continental Jn and Ashford.
 

ptreanor

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I thought it was Crocodile that wasn't fitted to the 92s, hence the AWS magnets around the Calais area. If they had no KVB they would have had no protection at all around St Pancras as that definitely didn't have AWS or TPWS. KVB was still fairly new in France when Channel Tunnel was first opened and most areas still only had Crocodile, which is functionally equivalent to AWS but instead of magnets uses a metal brush under the loco making electrical contact with a raised metal ramp between the rails. I know KVB was used to enable TVM as I regularly attended various meetings reviewing signalling scheme plans for Railtrack/Network Rail interfaces with CTRL. After Fawkham Jn on Phase 1 for instance, a Eurostar exiting the classic network would pass over a special series of KVB digital balises (very similar to the later eurobalises) which would automatically enable the TVM equipment on board. A similar process coming the other way would switch off the TVM. These arrangements also applied at the interfaces at Dollands Moor/Continental Jn and Ashford.
I repeat, class 92 locos are not equipped with KVB (only AWS, TPWS & TVM430) and they are not permitted into the train shed at St Pancras. Eurostar (and other TGV types) use KVB to check the operation of TVM once armed and not to arm it initially.
 

MarkyT

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I repeat, class 92 locos are not equipped with KVB (only AWS, TPWS & TVM430) and they are not permitted into the train shed at St Pancras. Eurostar (and other TGV types) use KVB to check the operation of TVM once armed and not to arm it initially.
Presumably, on original Eurostars, the mode switch changed over the signalling along with the power system, and passing the KVB balises would have disengaged power and initiated braking if the system had not switched over successfully? On the St Pancras, and Gare du Nord approaches, and now around Ashford, the KVB-TVM changeover and vice versa must take place automatically, as there's no mode switch operation there. TPWS was a retrofit, as it wasn't around when the locos were built in the early 1990s and, if Nightstar had gone ahead as envisaged, at least some of the class would have had to have been KVB-equipped to work into St Pancras, or an AWS/TPWS overlay also provided in that area. How is it confirmed that 92s are correctly switched into TVM mode on leaving Dollands Moor for the continent? Or is it only a dedicated pool of locos that are permanently switched to that mode that work through the tunnel today?
 

ptreanor

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Presumably, on original Eurostars, the mode switch changed over the signalling along with the power system, and passing the KVB balises would have disengaged power and initiated braking if the system had not switched over successfully? On the St Pancras, and Gare du Nord approaches, and now around Ashford, the KVB-TVM changeover and vice versa must take place automatically, as there's no mode switch operation there. TPWS was a retrofit, as it wasn't around when the locos were built in the early 1990s and, if Nightstar had gone ahead as envisaged, at least some of the class would have had to have been KVB-equipped to work into St Pancras, or an AWS/TPWS overlay also provided in that area. How is it confirmed that 92s are correctly switched into TVM mode on leaving Dollands Moor for the continent? Or is it only a dedicated pool of locos that are permanently switched to that mode that work through the tunnel today?
KVB (like TPWS) is always active on-board so there isn't the need to automatically arm it or disarm it. TVM IS automatically armed and disarmed by "ITL" loops in the track. Class 92 locos use "APC" magnets mounted on the sleeper ends to check that the TVM has armed, in lieu of KVB (the APC magnets can be seen at Cheriton for example). Class 92s cannot work into St Pancras as it is only KVB fitted with no AWS or TWPS. The North London Line Connection between the London Tunnels west portal and Camden Road is fitted with AWS and TPWS and (as I understand it) would have been the route taken by the night time rolling stock.
 

MarkyT

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KVB (like TPWS) is always active on-board so there isn't the need to automatically arm it or disarm it. TVM IS automatically armed and disarmed by "ITL" loops in the track. Class 92 locos use "APC" magnets mounted on the sleeper ends to check that the TVM has armed, in lieu of KVB (the APC magnets can be seen at Cheriton for example). Class 92s cannot work into St Pancras as it is only KVB fitted with no AWS or TWPS. The North London Line Connection between the London Tunnels west portal and Camden Road is fitted with AWS and TPWS and (as I understand it) would have been the route taken by the night time rolling stock.
Thanks very much for the detailed answer. I think there were some night trains planned to start from London, and the trains from the west at least would have been hauled into the terminus by pairs of class 37s with a 92 added at the country end for the CTRL leg, but the whole idea was abandoned long before Phase2 was actually opened so all the details never had to be sorted out.
 

Romsey

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Thanks very much for the detailed answer. I think there were some night trains planned to start from London, and the trains from the west at least would have been hauled into the terminus by pairs of class 37s with a 92 added at the country end for the CTRL leg, but the whole idea was abandoned long before Phase2 was actually opened so all the details never had to be sorted out.
Just a minor point, the CT sleeper services were planned to work in and out of Waterloo. This was to include combining and dividing the South Wales and West of England services. I think some loco changes for north of London services were going to be made at Kensington Olympia. Although the scheme died by the mid to late 1990's, the protected paths on the West of England line lasted until about 1999.
 

MarkyT

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Just a minor point, the CT sleeper services were planned to work in and out of Waterloo. This was to include combining and dividing the South Wales and West of England services. I think some loco changes for north of London services were going to be made at Kensington Olympia. Although the scheme died by the mid to late 1990's, the protected paths on the West of England line lasted until about 1999.
I got my timelines totally muddled up there! The Nightstar concept had actually been totally abandoned before even Phase 1 of CTRL had started construction, which means the various connections to conventional routes around St Pancras/Camden were wholly for the never to materialise regional Eurostar services. I suppose there's always the outside possibility of them being used by some day or night trains going somewhere else at some unspecified time in the future!
 

fgwrich

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KVB (like TPWS) is always active on-board so there isn't the need to automatically arm it or disarm it. TVM IS automatically armed and disarmed by "ITL" loops in the track. Class 92 locos use "APC" magnets mounted on the sleeper ends to check that the TVM has armed, in lieu of KVB (the APC magnets can be seen at Cheriton for example). Class 92s cannot work into St Pancras as it is only KVB fitted with no AWS or TWPS. The North London Line Connection between the London Tunnels west portal and Camden Road is fitted with AWS and TPWS and (as I understand it) would have been the route taken by the night time rolling stock.
Purely theoretically, but would this mean that something like a DB Class 92 would be able to work up from Dollands Moor to the connection with the North London Lines at all?

Thank you for all of your information so far - All very interesting stuff for an area which is probably quite alien to some of us!
 

ptreanor

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Purely theoretically, but would this mean that something like a DB Class 92 would be able to work up from Dollands Moor to the connection with the North London Lines at all?

Thank you for all of your information so far - All very interesting stuff for an area which is probably quite alien to some of us!
Yes, class 92 locos can work the extent of HS1 but not into St Pancras. In reality, they only work as far as Ripple Lane (Dagenham).
 
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