Is the Erewash Valley Line still faster than the Midland Mainline between it’s destination points?

[Intercity 225]

Hi,

Following the relatively recent upgrade to 125mph running on sections of the MML and the very recent upgrade to signalling at Derby, is it still quicker to take the Erewash Valley Line over the MML between it’s start/end points?

For the purpose of this question, let’s assume the train is running non-stop at maximum line speed.

All advice appreciated.

Many Thanks

 

[Rob F]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the Erewash Valley Line IS the the Midland Main Line!!

 

[Senex]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the Erewash Valley Line IS the the Midland Main Line!!

From the perspective of the mileposting .... But then in that case is the real Midland Main Line north of Chesterfield the Old Road, not the loop made by the Chesterfield & Sheffield and Sheffield & Rotherham lines?

 

[Bald Rick]

Good question.

It’s about 6 miles longer via Derby, with plenty of 100mph+ running, but with restrictions around Derby (recently raised). Via Erewash is almost exclusively 80mph, but with 30mph through the Trent Junctions, which is probably broadly equivalent to Derby in terms of time lost.

I’d say the Erewash still has it, but only by a minute or two. It would be interesting to see what the official answer is through application of the sectional running times.

 

[Senex]

And how much of the Erewash could now be upgraded to higher speeds if necessary? (Who remembers going over it in the Thames-Clyde Express in the days of the mining subsidence?)

 

[DH1Commuter]

Frivolously, I'd love to see a 'race to the north' one-off scenario here. Were it not for the business of passengers/freight/maintenance/safety, this could be epic.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

And how much of the Erewash could now be upgraded to higher speeds if necessary?

I hope some-one answers that question which I've wondered about for a long time.

 

[edwin_m]

There are bits that could be pushed out to 100mph but there are several strategically-placed curves and junctions that would still require the train to decelerate and speed up again. I did some investigation on this recently and concluded that upgrading 80mph sections to 100mph would save only a handful of seconds for a 170. It would require a higher-performance unit to make any difference.

 

[Intercity 225]

Thank you for all the replies.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the Erewash Valley Line IS the the Midland Main Line!!

Well although that may have once been the case, considering that the vast majority of London-Sheffield services now go via Derby it’d be pedantic to call it the MML today. How would you have phrased the question?

Good question.

It’s about 6 miles longer via Derby, with plenty of 100mph+ running, but with restrictions around Derby (recently raised). Via Erewash is almost exclusively 80mph, but with 30mph through the Trent Junctions, which is probably broadly equivalent to Derby in terms of time lost.

I’d say the Erewash still has it, but only by a minute or two. It would be interesting to see what the official answer is through application of the sectional running times.

Thank you.

And also for your informed and detailed opinion, are the sectional running times available?

And how much of the Erewash could now be upgraded to higher speeds if necessary? (Who remembers going over it in the Thames-Clyde Express in the days of the mining subsidence?)

There are bits that could be pushed out to 100mph but there are several strategically-placed curves and junctions that would still require the train to decelerate and speed up again. I did some investigation on this recently and concluded that upgrading 80mph sections to 100mph would save only a handful of seconds for a 170. It would require a higher-performance unit to make any difference.

Very interesting! What kind of higher-performance unit would make a difference? A Meridian perhaps?

Frivolously, I'd love to see a 'race to the north' one-off scenario here. Were it not for the business of passengers/freight/maintenance/safety, this could be epic.

Haha - that would be brilliant!

 

[38Cto15E]

The 'Master Cutler' should revert to the Erewash route, Sheffield-Chesterfield-Leicester-St Pancras in under 2 hours.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Slightly off beam will the HS2 plans as published save a lot of time to Sheffield over running up an improved Erewash Valley line from Toton? It seems a lot of railway to build to save perhaps 10 minutes. Or is it about votes?

At least now MML electrification has been put on the back burner we are now spared the stupidity of wiring to Sheffield via Derby but leaving the Erewash and the Radford line un wired.

Always a soft spot for this, I grew up at Trowell Jn.

 

[The Planner]

A quick scan of the SRTs in the down direction has Derby 3.5 mins longer for a 222 than the Erewash assuming both are non-stop.

 

[D5645]

The Erewash Valley is my favourite line having grown up in Ilkeston.

Fond memories of the down Master Cutler with a class 45/1 and the power handle wide open heading North in the evening.

 

[class 9]

Good question.

It’s about 6 miles longer via Derby, with plenty of 100mph+ running, but with restrictions around Derby (recently raised). Via Erewash is almost exclusively 80mph, but with 30mph through the Trent Junctions, which is probably broadly equivalent to Derby in terms of time lost.

I’d say the Erewash still has it, but only by a minute or two. It would be interesting to see what the official answer is through application of the sectional running times.

Quicker via Derby, especially now line speeds have been raised into Derby.
Also at Sheet Stores Jct when coming round from Trent, it’s 15mph one way & 10mph the other way.

 

[Senex]

A quick scan of the SRTs in the down direction has Derby 3.5 mins longer for a 222 than the Erewash assuming both are non-stop.

That's really interesting. The route via Derby is fully modernised, with high speeds where possible, whilst the EV route essentially still has the speeds of the 1960s except around Clay Cross. I wonder what the comparison would look like if there were a significantly faster junction at the south end, 100/110 running where possible, and a little juducious modernisation (like an improved curve at the canal bridge — i.e. a new bridge on a new alignment — just south of Shipley Gate and some improvements around Codnor Park/Pye Bridge).

 

[Bald Rick]

A quick scan of the SRTs in the down direction has Derby 3.5 mins longer for a 222 than the Erewash assuming both are non-stop.

Cheers, my guess was right!

Quicker via Derby, especially now line speeds have been raised into Derby.
Also at Sheet Stores Jct when coming round from Trent, it’s 15mph one way & 10mph the other way.

It isn’t, as @The Planner has demonstrated. He would know.

And in any event trains from London to / from the Erewash don’t go via Sheet Stores. They go via Trent East, which is 30mph.

 

[Bald Rick]

That's really interesting. The route via Derby is fully modernised, with high speeds where possible, whilst the EV route essentially still has the speeds of the 1960s except around Clay Cross. I wonder what the comparison would look like if there were a significantly faster junction at the south end, 100/110 running where possible, and a little juducious modernisation (like an improved curve at the canal bridge — i.e. a new bridge on a new alignment — just south of Shipley Gate and some improvements around Codnor Park/Pye Bridge).

It’s roughly 24 miles from Trent South to Clay Cross Junction via the Erewash. Almost all at 80mph, save for a couple of short restrictions at 75, 70 and 65. Allowing for acceleration and deceleration, average speed will be around 70mph, giving a time of 20.5 minutes (this is back of fag packet, but will be in the right ball park)

Via Derby it is approx six miles longer. Even with long stretches at 100mph+ (but with only 3 miles above 110mph), there are still restrictions on the approaches to and through Derby, and through the Ambergate area. Those extra 6 miles means the train has to average about 88mph going this way, and even with the upgrade at Derby the train will be sufficiently slow enough through there to make that impossible.

 

[70014IronDuke]

And how much of the Erewash could now be upgraded to higher speeds if necessary? (Who remembers going over it in the Thames-Clyde Express in the days of the mining subsidence?)

<Sticks hand up at the back of the class> I do, sir! And very stop-start it was too. Or rather slow - slow - quick - (a bit quicker) - slow. That's the right answer, isn't it, sir? (It also enabled you to get more numbers passing Westhouses shed).

 

[70014IronDuke]

...

And in any event trains from London to / from the Erewash don’t go via Sheet Stores. They go via Trent East, which is 30mph.

But that PSR is a modern creation, surely? In days of yore, wasn't it 60 mph, like Trent South?
Which still leaves the question open as to what could be achieved given 'modest' investment into the route, if, say, it was decided to send one of the Sheffields per hour that way non-stop to Chesterfield?

 

[70014IronDuke]

The 'Master Cutler' should revert to the Erewash route, Sheffield-Chesterfield-Leicester-St Pancras in under 2 hours.

Until it got to Bedford, and was then regulated behind a Thameslink service, that is ...
Nice thought though - it would make the Cutler something special, if they could afford to drop the Derby stop.

 

[43074]

Until it got to Bedford, and was then regulated behind a Thameslink service, that is ...
Nice thought though - it would make the Cutler something special, if they could afford to drop the Derby stop.

The 0826 Sheffield to London does the journey in 1 hr 59, and there are plenty of other services Northbound timed for 1 hr 59, all of those going via Derby so I don't see what benefit there would be to going direct via the Erewash Valley at all really.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The 0826 Sheffield to London does the journey in 1 hr 59, and there are plenty of other services Northbound timed for 1 hr 59, all of those going via Derby so I don't see what benefit there would be to going direct via the Erewash Valley at all really.

OK. But presumably a non-stop Chesterfield-Leicester run would shave 3 or 4 minutes off the Derby timings? Whether that would attract enough passengers to make up for the loss of Derby passengers is another matter, of course.

 

[cle]

What will the journey time come down to once the various Derby, Market Harborough and Leicester works are done?

Would future bi-modes save anything further? It's non-stop south of Leicester on the fast so probably less improvement than wires for the stoppers. I'd guess full wiring (if ever) would bring it down a bit further.

 

[Intercity 225]

Thank you for all the additional replies.

A quick scan of the SRTs in the down direction has Derby 3.5 mins longer for a 222 than the Erewash assuming both are non-stop.

Brilliant - cheers for clarifying!

That's really interesting. The route via Derby is fully modernised, with high speeds where possible, whilst the EV route essentially still has the speeds of the 1960s except around Clay Cross. I wonder what the comparison would look like if there were a significantly faster junction at the south end, 100/110 running where possible, and a little juducious modernisation (like an improved curve at the canal bridge — i.e. a new bridge on a new alignment — just south of Shipley Gate and some improvements around Codnor Park/Pye Bridge).

Interesting thought, anybody have any ideas as to the answer?

The 'Master Cutler' should revert to the Erewash route, Sheffield-Chesterfield-Leicester-St Pancras in under 2 hours.

I used to regularly travel from Sheffield to London and back again for work roughly once a week a few years ago and usually ended up on the morning “Cutler”. It was always packed from departure in Sheffield but in terms of passenger destinations I’d estimate (bear in mind this is nothing scientific) that roughly 40% were heading to London, 25% to Chesterfield, 30% to Derby and 5% to Leicester.

That being said other Sheffield to London services slightly before/after the “Cutler” would see a similar split. As such I suspect that a Sheffield > Chesterfield > London via the Erewash Valley today using a 7-car Meridian would be easily filled because most business travellers between Sheffield and London would choose to use a service noticiably faster than the others available.

I’d also drop the Leicester stop altogether, could anyone confirm how much additional time this’d save please?

Until it got to Bedford, and was then regulated behind a Thameslink service, that is ...
Nice thought though - it would make the Cutler something special, if they could afford to drop the Derby stop.

Is it guaranteed to get stuck? Is anyone able to clarify whether all EMT services are held up by Thameslink to some extent or another and whether paths are possible to be found for “premium” service(s) to avoid such an eventuality?

The 0826 Sheffield to London does the journey in 1 hr 59, and there are plenty of other services Northbound timed for 1 hr 59, all of those going via Derby so I don't see what benefit there would be to going direct via the Erewash Valley at all really.

OK. But presumably a non-stop Chesterfield-Leicester run would shave 3 or 4 minutes off the Derby timings? Whether that would attract enough passengers to make up for the loss of Derby passengers is another matter, of course.

I’d suggest that one morning flagship service could skip Derby (and Leicester) for the reasons outlined above. Would also be interesting to find out how quick such a service would be today following the recent MML upgrades if anyone is able to provide any insight?

What will the journey time come down to once the various Derby, Market Harborough and Leicester works are done?

Would future bi-modes save anything further? It's non-stop south of Leicester on the fast so probably less improvement than wires for the stoppers. I'd guess full wiring (if ever) would bring it down a bit further.

Good thoughts, I too would be interested in finding these things out!

 

[43074]

OK. But presumably a non-stop Chesterfield-Leicester run would shave 3 or 4 minutes off the Derby timings? Whether that would attract enough passengers to make up for the loss of Derby passengers is another matter, of course.

You could save far more time by running them in a better path - I'm more than aware it is a bit more difficult than "simply" doing that, e.g. you'd end up clashing with Leicester to Brum services in the Leicester area or the eastbound or westbound Liverpool to Norwich services in the Sheffield area unless you retimed these around the London service (obviously depending on the preferred solution) but subtracting pathing allowances and allowing a 2 min dwell at Derby and Leicester seems to give the potential for a 1hr56ish journey time and that's running via Derby... Is going via the Erewash really worth it at all? A good start would just be to have a sub 2 hour timing arriving in London before 9am.