Is the Government's contact tracing system effective and worthwhile?

[43066]

Then they need to be extra-careful about where they go and what they do.

They might be extra careful, but they might still develop symptoms, or live with someone who does. I bet people in that situation will still be going to work.

Let’s not kid ourselves: you’d do exactly the same if you had to choose between that and losing your job, and so would I.

 

[Bantamzen]

Then they need to be extra-careful about where they go and what they do.

So basically you are creating another couple of classes, those that can afford to take time off work or work from home, and those that can't. And the latter will have less access to social integration than the former. Does that sound about right?

 

[MikeWM]

So basically you are creating another couple of classes, those that can afford to take time off work or work from home, and those that can't. And the latter will have less access to social integration than the former. Does that sound about right?

We sure are making things incredibly complicated, in order to try to manage a disease that is remarkably similar to many that have passed through the population before - without trying to restructure our entire lives.

The whole thing is increasingly resembling a terribly-poorly-managed IT project where all the wrong decisions were made at the start and we're making increasingly complex and messy choices to try to deal with that, rather than just admit we got it all wrong and starting over.

 

[AdamWW]

We sure are making things incredibly complicated, in order to try to manage a disease that is remarkably similar to many that have passed through the population before - without trying to restructure our entire lives.

When was the last coronavirus pandemic?

 

[MikeWM]

When was the last coronavirus pandemic?

The 'Hong Kong' flu of 1968-9 was very similar in many respects, as we've discussed many times already.

 

[AdamWW]

The 'Hong Kong' flu of 1968-9 was very similar in many respects, as we've discussed many times already.

We have, and we'll have to differ on this - I don't buy the "It's pretty much the same as Hong Kong flu but for whatever reason almost every country has chosen to deal with this very differently" view.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They might be extra careful, but they might still develop symptoms, or live with someone who does. I bet people in that situation will still be going to work.

Let’s not kid ourselves: you’d do exactly the same if you had to choose between that and losing your job, and so would I.

If I had symptoms I'd get a test immediately. I had one last Friday, they were available straight away, no wait at all. If I tested positively I would not go to work because I am not a murderer. My desire not to cause people to die is very strong, personally. If I tested negatively then it isn't COVID!

So basically you are creating another couple of classes, those that can afford to take time off work or work from home, and those that can't. And the latter will have less access to social integration than the former. Does that sound about right?

That's the fact of the situation, yes. It's not nice, but it's how we are at present.

The more people play along, the shorter a time it will go on for.

 

[AdamWW]

That's the fact of the situation, yes. It's not nice, but it's how we are at present.

But it's something the government could go a long way to changing, for a small fraction of the money spent so far on paying people's wages while they don't work.

 

[Huntergreed]

Interestingly, in Carlisle there's been 4 pubs with an outbreak (one of which I intend to visit next week), and instead of contact tracing, they've put out a facebook call asking anyone who was in on the dates that the positive cases went to book a test (not to self isolate).

Surely this defeats the purpose of track and trace?

 

[43066]

If I had symptoms I'd get a test immediately. I had one last Friday, they were available straight away, no wait at all. If I tested positively I would not go to work because I am not a murderer. My desire not to cause people to die is very strong, personally.

If you had to choose between being unable to feed yourself and your family, or going to work with symptoms, I guarantee you’d
continue to go to work, even if you’d tested positively.

Those who are forced to continue working by dint of circumstance plainly aren’t “murderers”. It’s utterly preposterous to suggest that they are, in the context of a virus that poses an infinitesimal risk to the overwhelming majority of those it infects.

Surely you can see that?

I’ve been knocking around on here for a few years, and you seem perfectly sensible and rational about most topics, so I’m surprised by your reaction to this issue!

That's the fact of the situation, yes. It's not nice, but it's how we are at present.

The more people play along, the shorter a time it will go on for.

People have played along. And it patently isn’t going away anytime soon.

In fact, it seems to be getting worse.

 

[Yew]

If he/she is, then the attitude presented stands a good chance of killing that family member if infected.

I fear that you are gravely overestimating the actual risks.That statement is clearly untrue.

 

[Yew]

We sure are making things incredibly complicated, in order to try to manage a disease that is remarkably similar to many that have passed through the population before - without trying to restructure our entire lives.

The whole thing is increasingly resembling a terribly-poorly-managed IT project where all the wrong decisions were made at the start and we're making increasingly complex and messy choices to try to deal with that, rather than just admit we got it all wrong and starting over.

Time to call for an architectural design review!

 

[MikeWM]

Time to call for an architectural design review!

Not dramatic enough Sack all the people responsible, and make sure all copies of the source code encounter an alarmingly large magnet... and then let's try again.

 

[Bantamzen]

That's the fact of the situation, yes. It's not nice, but it's how we are at present.

The more people play along, the shorter a time it will go on for.

And which new class are you in? Isn't easy to pass the problems onto other people when you would hardly be effected?

The words "alright", "am", "Jack" & "I" spring to mind for some reason...

 

[edwin_m]

If you had to choose between being unable to feed yourself and your family, or going to work with symptoms, I guarantee you’d
continue to go to work, even if you’d tested positively.

Those who are forced to continue working by dint of circumstance plainly aren’t “murderers”. It’s utterly preposterous to suggest that they are, in the context of a virus that poses an infinitesimal risk to the overwhelming majority of those it infects.

That's the situation with many people in America, where a much larger proportion of jobs don't have sick pay and it does indeed seem to be getting worse in an alarming way. Perhaps the two facts are connected?

People have played along. And it patently isn’t going away anytime soon.

In fact, it seems to be getting worse.

Pretty much everywhere has seen an uptick in numbers since bars and restaurants were opened. This may be local clusters manageable by local measures or it maybe the start of something bigger and uncontrollable like in America. In the UK we start off with the disadvantages of having higher numbers of cases than in most European and Far Eastern countries (so more work for the contact tracers), and a contact tracing system that's less effective than most of those countries. Plus a government run by idiots.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To rejuvenate this thread a bit...apparently the Google/Apple version of the app (which will include a "scan a barcode" system for pubs etc which should make that work a bit better for those who own smartphones at least) will shortly be ready for testing. Will be interesting to see if it goes anywhere.

Coronavirus: England's contact-tracing app readies for launch

The app will use QR barcode scans as well as Bluetooth handshakes to determine if users are at risk.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Reported by Aunty Beeb today

Coronavirus: Contact tracers to be reduced by 6,000 in England

The NHS test and trace system in England is cutting 6,000 staff by the end of August, the government has announced.

The remaining contact tracers will work alongside local public health teams to reach more infected people and their contacts in communities.

It comes after criticism that the national system was not tapping into local knowledge.

The approach has been used in virus hotspots like Blackburn and Luton.

And it's now being offered to all councils that are responsible for public health in their area.

Test and trace is staffed by NHS clinicians and people who were trained to become contact tracers during the pandemic.

NHS staff who offer advice to people who have tested positive for coronavirus will not be laid off.

But the national service will shrink from 18,000 contact tracers to 12,000 with the remaining non-NHS call handlers redeployed as part of dedicated local test and trace teams, the Department of Health says.

This means local areas will have "ring-fenced teams" from the national test and trace service.

Another 200 walk-in testing centres will also open by October.

Not sure what to make of that, tbh.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's positive that T&T is being moved to local authorities as they can do it better because they know their local area and local issues (for instance, if, as seems to be the case, some places of worship may be the source of hotspots, they can physically visit those places in person and talk about it). This should be a good move-on from the "phone a friend service" of the national scheme. This will be disappointed for those who had found themselves a job being paid to watch Netflix, but that's not really a good base for employment - if we want job creation schemes there are far better options for it, such as those involving maintaining the public realm.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Reported by Aunty Beeb today

Coronavirus: Contact tracers to be reduced by 6,000 in England

Not sure what to make of that, tbh.

If they're shifting the approach to a more local one, then that's the right call imo. It's been pointed out on here that in Sandwell, an ethnically diverse borough just west of Birmingham, a specialised local tracing centre was set up with many of the contact tracers having knowledge of the particular languages and dynamics within the various communities in the borough. By all accounts it has done rather well, certainly beating most comparable areas. A national system which has to cater to everywhere from Blackburn to Swindon can't be as specialised and so will struggle.

 

[Domh245]

By all accounts, getting T&T away from Serco isn't a bad thing, and that's before considering things like regional knowledge allowing more efficient operation!

 

[Smidster]

To rejuvenate this thread a bit...apparently the Google/Apple version of the app (which will include a "scan a barcode" system for pubs etc which should make that work a bit better for those who own smartphones at least) will shortly be ready for testing. Will be interesting to see if it goes anywhere.

Coronavirus: England's contact-tracing app readies for launch

The app will use QR barcode scans as well as Bluetooth handshakes to determine if users are at risk.

www.bbc.co.uk

Sounds like a positive development and actually sounds similar to the app used in, you guessed it, New Zealand which acted more like a digital diary than a proximity detector but can give vital information to your contact tracers.

Hopefully it is easy for businesses to implement - for public transport for example some kind of reader in every carriage...right now it does seem a bit of a t&t blind spot

 

[PHILIPE]

By all accounts, getting T&T away from Serco isn't a bad thing, and that's before considering things like regional knowledge allowing more efficient operation!

And the woman appointed to be in charge, Dido Harding, is a Conservative Party crony and her hubby an MP and proved her efficiency (?) when CEO at TalkTalk. When there was a major Cyber Attack and she was asked about it she didn't know if their data was encrypted or not or how many accounts could have been compromised.

 

[ainsworth74]

I suppose it shouldn't be surprising really. It seems that these days the Governments default position is to outsource instantly (I'm sure no Tory party donors or other hangers on benefit from such things) rather than looking internally at what could be delivered by existing departments or by regional/local governments. But no instant outsourcing. I can't help but suspect that if the same money that has been spent on Serco had been given to local the Test & Trace teams we would have had a far better system and it would have been up and running much quicker to boot. Particularly considering the good work they've already been doing on existing budgets...

 

[Senex]

And the woman appointed to be in charge, Dido Harding, is a Conservative Party crony and her hubby an MP and proved her efficiency (?) when CEO at TalkTalk. When there was a major Cyber Attack and she was asked about it she didn't know if their data was encrypted or not or how many accounts could have been compromised.

You'd have thought that one thing a Conservative government might do would be to draw on people with a genuinely proven record of achievement (science, business, maybe just maybe even finance), but instead the very worst sort of cronyism seems to rule, as various investigators seem to have shewn in the last two or three weeks (Guardian, passim, for example) — provided you have the right connections and the right Brexit sympathies, you'll do, no matter how weak your record looks. And, of course, it will always be "world class", whatever that may mean. What a pity examples like both PPE and track-and-trace seem to indicate the at both people and product are very far from the top of any international league!

 

[Yew]

I suppose it shouldn't be surprising really. It seems that these days the Governments default position is to outsource instantly (I'm sure no Tory party donors or other hangers on benefit from such things) rather than looking internally at what could be delivered by existing departments or by regional/local governments. But no instant outsourcing. I can't help but suspect that if the same money that has been spent on Serco had been given to local the Test & Trace teams we would have had a far better system and it would have been up and running much quicker to boot. Particularly considering the good work they've already been doing on existing budgets...

I'm just glad that the contract went to a reputable organisation with no history of defrauding the taxpayer.

 

[Bantamzen]

You'd have thought that one thing a Conservative government might do would be to draw on people with a genuinely proven record of achievement (science, business, maybe just maybe even finance), but instead the very worst sort of cronyism seems to rule, as various investigators seem to have shewn in the last two or three weeks (Guardian, passim, for example) — provided you have the right connections and the right Brexit sympathies, you'll do, no matter how weak your record looks. And, of course, it will always be "world class", whatever that may mean. What a pity examples like both PPE and track-and-trace seem to indicate the at both people and product are very far from the top of any international league!

Looks at the Prime Minister....
Looks at the Cabinet...
Looks at the Government advisors....

Colour me cynical, but none of this is a surprise. The crisis has been in the making ever since the Tory Party went rogue & voted in Boris.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looks at the Prime Minister....
Looks at the Cabinet...
Looks at the Government advisors....

Colour me cynical, but none of this is a surprise. The crisis has been in the making ever since the Tory Party went rogue & voted in Boris.

For once we agree. Populism is the problem. It needs to go.

I do blame Labour too, for fielding a candidate that was never in a million years going to lead them to a General Election win.

 

[Bantamzen]

For once we agree. Populism is the problem. It needs to go.

I do blame Labour too, for fielding a candidate that was never in a million years going to lead them to a General Election win.

Agreed, the whole of politics has failed us.

 

[Senex]

Agreed, the whole of politics has failed us.

Agreed by me too — but what happens when Johnson and his cronies decide to use their 80-seat majority to force through an extension of the life of this parliament ....? Our "constitution" was never designed to protect us from a mob like the present lot who shew no respect at all for the old conventions of behaviour.

 

[HSTEd]

I do blame Labour too, for fielding a candidate that was never in a million years going to lead them to a General Election win.

Even though he got within a few thousand votes of a majority?
Despite backbiting etc.

People have agency and voted to make Boris Prime Minister.
Now they live with the choice they made.