Is there any real future for Electric Locos?

[GNERman]

As many of you know Electric Locomotives are in the decline from being replaced with multiple units:

86's-Voyager, Pendolino and 90's
87's-Pendolinos
90's-Pendolinos, Freight in decline
91-In Service-Probable replace by EMU's
92-In Service-Lack of Service

Is there any future with them with the electrification projects or will they be sold abroad like some 86's and most 87's?

 

[Freightliner]

I think that they should be used as if they ran with coaches it would give more capacity than most units.

 

[Freightliner]

In matter of fact, what's wrong with electric locos being replaced? Surely DEMUs eg Voyager and EMUs eg Pendolino are better for both transport and the environment?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Surely some of the electric locos were failures in their time and didn't do very well, eg were't as successful as others, so surely they deserve to be replaced?

And also, what in all of Britain is a class 73?

 

[EE Type 3]

In matter of fact, what's wrong with electric locos being replaced? Surely DEMUs eg Voyager and EMUs eg Pendolino are better for both transport and the environment?

How on earth could you think that electric locos are worse than diesels in terms or evironmental output? :???: Electric is the way forward, everyone has just realised it, Freightliner already know it with the 90s and 86s earning their keep day in day out, and EWS are now taking full advantage of it, 92s will now be able to travel at 90mph on class 3 freights.

So we aren't giving up on it just yet

Oh, and a 73 is one of these things http://daviddawson.fotopic.net/p49771021.html

Runs on diesel and on third rail, clever little things :razz:

 

[mbonwick]

92s will now be able to travel at 90mph on class 3 freights.

I thought a 92s top speed was 87mph, irrespective of load.

I think electric is the way forward, you can make much more powerful and less heavy electric locos

 

[EE Type 3]

I thought a 92s top speed was 87mph, irrespective of load.

I think electric is the way forward, you can make much more powerful and less heavy electric locos

It has been tweeked, wonderful thing computers

I think they tested a 92 at 90mph on the Alloa tour.

 

[Waverley125]

91s are the most powerful & fastest electric locomotives in the world. I don't want them replaced with EMUs-just build more 91s & Mark 4s-the design's superb so why change it?

 

[EE Type 3]

91s are the most powerful & fastest electric locomotives in the world. I don't want them replaced with EMUs-just build more 91s & Mark 4s-the design's superb so why change it?

Fastest? It's not.

This chap is

 

[anthony263]

well if the go-ahead in given in the new year to elxtrify the great western mainline, then i suspect that instead o purchasing new trains maybe FGW and the DFT should use the mark 3 stock coaches and replace the hst power cars with an eletric loco motive.

 

[jopsuk]

Fastest? It's not.

This chap is

It comes down to strict definitions I realise, but what about TGV Power-cars? They are seperate to the trailer-rake. I realise that they only have one cab, and are limited to running with just TGV rakes, but they have no passenger accomodation, and are seperately coupled with their own bogies.

 

[Dennis]

91s are the most powerful & fastest electric locomotives in the world. I don't want them replaced with EMUs-just build more 91s & Mark 4s-the design's superb so why change it?

At only 4.54MW, the class 91 is a bit puny compared to something like the channel tunnel shuttle locos (7.0MW) and only half the power of some being built for use in China...

From http://www.railway-technology.com
"Germany's Siemens Transportation Systems has teamed up with a Chinese freight company to build 500 of the worlds most powerful electric freight locomotives for the Chinese railway.
CSR Zhuzhou Electric Locomotive and Siemens are designing the 9.6MW locomotives which can operate at top speeds of 120km/h. Each train will have six axles and weigh up to 150t.
A corresponding contract for the supply of components worth over €334m has also just been signed by the two companies.
The first units are due to start service at the beginning of 2009"

 

[Phoenix]

After spraying my drink over the screen after reading the first and second posts on this thread may I put this forward in bullet point form.

1.Class 90's have no threat at all at the moment as yes ONE EWS class 90 has less passenger work but still will be used and EWS are starting to use them increasingly and let's not forget the sleeper trains that refuse to be hauled by any other traction.
As for freight it is hardly in decline the full compliment of freightliner class 90's are actually working nearly everyday and yes EWS does need to start using them but is actually working on proposals for increased electrification which EWS can use there leccys on.

2.Class 91 well you say probably well as it goes Some of the railway industry is fighting to retain rolling stock and locos rather than IEP and the 91's are gonna have to go at some time but You never know.

3.Class 92 In recent months we have seen more class 92's and actually a handful of demics off for a new future but may still continue to work in this country but through to the Continent.But EWS has begun this year to use the class 92 fleet more extensively and on freighmaster it has become apparent you can manage to see 10 of these beasts in one day the Birmingham area alone not to mention all of those up north or on the third rail

4. class 86 you forgot to mention the freightliner class 86's which actually freightliner actually has more of than class 90's not to mention the fixing up of two locos almost burnt to a crisp and remeber 86101 see actually still has 100% reliability on her cards.

Not having a go at anyone just as a devoted AC fan I would like to keep the facts in order.

 

[Darandio]

Must admit I nearly rolled off my chair with a couple of the early posts. Imagine it must be something to do with electricity and where the majority of it comes from which still is fossil fuels of which there is a small point to be had.

Anyway, as for Class 90, 91 & 92, I think there is plenty of life left in these yet. Cannot see 91's leaving the ECML, even with the HST2 programme, many will still be needed and any surplus would just be moved elsewhere. 90's are still well within their lifespan, people keep talking about electrification for various routes so if it happened they would be ideal for the few years until new locos were introduced. As for 92's, I seem to see them a hell of a lot more now then when they were first built so that must be an improvement and I also think that there could be a greater market for these in the future, especially with the original lifespan that would be anticipated from such a relatively new loco.

 

[90019]

Fastest? It's not.

Yes, but 91101 currently holds the UK locomotive speed record at 162mph

 

[37427]

92-In Service-Lack of Service

Not sure that's the reason...

AFAIK the demise of the 92s is due the the amount of volts the locos drain from the overheads, which can, under certain circumstances, cause the OHLE to short. They are restricted from some routes because of this.

I'm open to correction though.

 

[djw1981]

After spraying my drink over the screen after reading the first and second posts on this thread may I put this forward in bullet point form.

1.Class 90's have no threat at all at the moment as yes ONE EWS class 90 has less passenger work but still will be used and EWS are starting to use them increasingly and let's not forget the sleeper trains that refuse to be hauled by any other traction.

Except for cl67 when they have to divert around engineering works on wcml - also how does a train refuse?

 

[Phoenix]

Except for cl67 when they have to divert around engineering works on wcml - also how does a train refuse?

I didn't say literally did I lol
But what I mean is there has been hardly any occasions when the sleeper in recent years has been hauled under the wires by anything but a class 90 (In a normal everyday situation).

But to generally add more to the Thread.................

The major point which has been found in recent years is the cost effectiveness of electric traction.
Surprisingly the class 86 was BR's best Investment and has been gracing this countries railways for 50 years and some examples still have contracts for the next five years,really I would definatly bet on the class actually having revenue earning runners on their 60th Birthday.
But the interestingly surprising fact about all electrics is they have a much longer life span than any diesel loco as electrical equipment is very easy to overhaul and single parts can just be re-used after a good going over.

Take for example these electric facts.

EM2 Electra in the MRC is actually still a runner despite her indeed quite old age and this is cause the overhaul is a damn sight easier.

Sarah Siddons (is currently the worlds oldest running electric locomotive) and is still in very perfect condition and would be doing tours on the mainline network if the LTM didn't think the addition of OTMR to her isn't worth the deviation from her near works condition.

Obviously I am not saying the locos don't have faults as there are various problems with electrics such as overheating,overloading equipment,Traction motors exploding,and lest not us forget mercury-arc rectifiers.

But overall I feel I am starting to come up with a few too many pro's rather than con's.............

 

[34067James]

Freightliner already know it with the 90s and 86s earning their keep day in day out, and EWS are now taking full advantage of it, 92s will now be able to travel at 90mph on class 3 freights.

Though arent they getting replaced by this new class 68?

Is the the Class 92 the most powerfull locomotives in Britian? One last thing arent the 92's the only train to go though the Channel tunnel apart from eurostar & Le shuttle?

James

 

[Phoenix]

Though arent they getting replaced by this new class 68?

Is the the Class 92 the most powerfull locomotives in Britian? One last thing arent the 92's the only train to go though the Channel tunnel apart from eurostar & Le shuttle?

James

Well as it stands various locos have traversed the tunnels some part way and some the whole way.

Class 319 (whole way)
Class 73 (part way)
class 86 (part way)
class 20 (part way)
Class 22 the french electric ones (whole way and actually work for over a year)

one type of french diesel but ultimately became banned when new rules against diesels in the tunnel were produced.

And no the class 68 is not set to replace any certain class of FL loco as they will be used for new and surplus work.

 

[87015]

Well as it stands various locos have traversed the tunnels
class 86 (part way)

Whats the gen here? New one to me, interested to hear it.

 

[Phoenix]

Whats the gen here? New one to me, interested to hear it.

A quite old article in rail a while ago basically the 86 in question was used to test the OHLE in the car loading sight and generally the enterance into the tunnel before any formal opening but only went part way as was not covered to work any further into the tunnel.
(I can find it for you to prove it if need be)

Also I have the article handy about the class 73.............

Basically on October the 22nd 1992 73112 worked Waterloo-Channel Tunnel with Saloon car 975025 (propelled) and a handful of guests to see basically what all the fuss was about so was officially the first passenger train into the tunnel.

 

[34067James]

Well as it stands various locos have traversed the tunnels some part way and some the whole way.

Class 319 (whole way)
Class 73 (part way)
class 86 (part way)
class 20 (part way)
Class 22 the french electric ones (whole way and actually work for over a year)

one type of french diesel but ultimately became banned when new rules against diesels in the tunnel were produced.

And no the class 68 is not set to replace any certain class of FL loco as they will be used for new and surplus work.

Thanks for that information there You do get the EWS/Euro Cargo Rail class 66 though there but thats dead engine on an class 92 freight working.

James

 

[37402]

Whats the gen here? New one to me, interested to hear it.

Not sure why and not sure if I'm jibbering here, but 86205 rings a bell for some reason as the one being involved...

1.Class 90's have no threat at all at the moment as yes ONE EWS class 90 has less passenger work but still will be used and EWS are starting to use them increasingly and let's not forget the sleeper trains that refuse to be hauled by any other traction. As for freight it is hardly in decline the full compliment of freightliner class 90's are actually working nearly everyday and yes EWS does need to start using them but is actually working on proposals for increased electrification which EWS can use there leccys on.

EWS are starting to use them increasingly are they? Is that why they have over 50% of the fleet in store and that number has increased year on year (discounting the recent storage due to the cessation of the VWC diagram)? What diagrammed work do they have apart from the sleepers and the 1 on hire to NXEA? With the trial of 92s at 90mph which is more than suitable for the sleepers, having at least some knowledge of the mindset at EWS, I may deduce that they are looking to get rid of the 90s once the hire work dries up and standardise on 92s as dual purpose passenger and freight locos. For anything higher than 90mph, 67s would be utilised - which is current policy; and it certainly makes good business sense!

4. class 86 you forgot to mention the freightliner class 86's which actually freightliner actually has more of than class 90's not to mention the fixing up of two locos almost burnt to a crisp and remeber 86101 see actually still has 100% reliability on her cards.

Freightliner has more 86s because, believe it or not, due to having less 'pulling power' doubling up is required to haul trains that a 90 can handle on its own. Maybe 501 and 609 were required back in traffic because fleet availability is on a downward trend as they get older so more are needed to cover an increasing number out of service? As for the 100% reliability figure for 86101, how many trips has it worked this year in comparison with an FL 86? Not really a fair comparison is it...?

Not having a go at anyone just as a devoted AC fan I would like to keep the facts in order.

Is that a joke?

 

[GNERman]

But why does Freighjtliner and EWS have class 90's stored at the back of Crewe EMD. EWS is using the 92's more but why are Freightliner using the 86's more than 90's?
What of other users using the electric locos eg:
FCC-86's and Mk.2/3 for services from London to Peterborough/Cambridge
NXEC-90's for Leeds services

What about TPE for their Man Airport-Edinburgh/Glasgow services as surely 185's could be used to strengthen other services and the whole route is electrified-surely this would be a clever thing to do. Maybe class 90+Mk3+DVT

Anyway what do we thing of the Europhoenix thing with class 86's. I can see the demand in Europe but not here as many 90's and 92's are stored. Anyway why have your locos scattered across Europe-where would maintenence be done, depots etc.

Oh and for a private loco to have 100% reliability is pretty good i'll have you know! It was worked quite a lot of trips plus the HT action. just the 87 that's had the problems.

 

[Waverley125]

91s may get retired from the ECML, but that doesn't mean they'll leave the network. WoEML & MML electrifications are planned-neither of which require a pendolino-esque tilting EMU design. (this is something that really annoys me-the strange want for the cramped & ugly pendolinos for flat, straight lines). The GEML is also the slowest, and Norwich-London would benefit hugely from replacing 90s & mk3s with 225s.

 

[EE Type 3]

But why does Freighjtliner and EWS have class 90's stored at the back of Crewe EMD. EWS is using the 92's more but why are Freightliner using the 86's more than 90's?

The 90s suffer from chronic wheelslip no matter what load, a pair of 86/6s can take a hefty load and keep it in check, the 86s have a better rate of acceleration than the 90s too.

The reason EWS has stored the 90s and 86s is because it doesn't need them, it has 92s and spares for the fleet of 90s.

 

[37402]

Oh and for a private loco to have 100% reliability is pretty good i'll have you know! It was worked quite a lot of trips plus the HT action. just the 87 that's had the problems.

I'll have you know. Well there's the quote from the fleet engineer then. :roll:

I agree that 86101 has had an enviable reliability record, but I will say again you cannot compare an FOC operated loco (86/90/92) which could cover on average 500 miles per day, 300+ days per year which has not had a 'big exam' for a significant length of time to a privately owned loco which has had a big exam recently to return it to service and could cover at best 500 miles per week.

 

[Jonfun]

... their Man Airport-Edinburgh/Glasgow services as surely 185's could be used to strengthen other services and the whole route is electrified...

Except for the rather important bit between Deansgate and Preston.

But back to the original question, yes, I do believe certain electric locos have a future; purely from a passenger point of view, I find the National Express 91 hauled rakes much more comfortable than a Pendolino EMU, due to them feeling (In my personal opinion) more spacious. They could theoretically travel at the same top speed (i.e 140mph), albeit acceleration maybe a bit slower in the 91-hauled rake than the 390. It's for this reason they keep them running on the ECML - they're more than suited to the line and I believe the standard passenger likes them, so in the end, why replace them?