Is there anywhere on National Rail that creates a kind of mini-metro service?

[Shimbleshanks]

mods note - split from this thread

A small variation on the theme - where does national rail create a viable intra-urban transport route, a kind of mini-metro, so to speak?
I don't mean the obvious big cities like London, Glasgow, Liverpool etc, where rail might be expected to be part of the urban transport system, but smaller places, where there is a viable intra-urban rail route, probably through an accident of geography more than anything else.

I can think of the Strood-Rochester-Chatham-Gillingham conurbation. Colchester? (in that someone might want to travel from Colchester to Colchester Town station, though it's rather indirect.) Hurst Green to Oxted perhaps? Wolverton-Milton Keynes-Bletchley perhaps?

I wonder how much use such routes get?

I suppose you could even make a case for the aforementioned Llanrwst to Llanrwst North? (Though this one is hardly metro style frequencies.)

 

[Ken H]

Skipton - Keighley - Bingley - Shipley. Every 15 minutes with the odd extra from further afield thrown in.

 

[johnnychips]

A small variation on the theme - where does national rail create a viable intra-urban transport route, a kind of mini-metro, so to speak?
I don't mean the obvious big cities like London, Glasgow, Liverpool etc, where rail might be expected to be part of the urban transport system, but smaller places, where there is a viable intra-urban rail route, probably through an accident of geography more than anything else.

Within one authority, I suppose you could have a Tameside mini metro on the same line:

Broadbottom - Hattersley - Godley - Newton for Hyde - Flowery Field - Guide Bridge - Fairfield. However, these are either small, or suburbs of Hyde or Ashton, without serving their centres.

 

[zwk500]

Wolverton-Milton Keynes-Bletchley perhaps?

Wolverton-MK is overwhelmingly directional (am into MK, pm out), MK-Bletchley is a bit more balanced. Both commuters and schoolchildren use the route a lot.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Within one authority, I suppose you could have a Tameside mini metro on the same line:

Broadbottom - Hattersley - Godley - Newton for Hyde - Flowery Field - Guide Bridge - Fairfield. However, these are either small, or suburbs of Hyde or Ashton, without serving their centres.

Yes, Hyde seems to be a bit of a local centre, but as you say, none of those stations actually serve it, but rather Hyde North which is a bit out of the centre of the town.

Wolverton-MK is overwhelmingly directional (am into MK, pm out), MK-Bletchley is a bit more balanced. Both commuters and schoolchildren use the route a lot.

That's interesting - especially as I believe the original plans for MK included a central station at all?

 

[Magdalia]

A small variation on the theme - where does national rail create a viable intra-urban transport route, a kind of mini-metro, so to speak?

In Hertfordshire the Kings Cross-Cambridge stopping service does this, linking Potters Bar, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Stevenage, Hitchin, Letchworth Garden City, Baldock and Royston.

There's a lot of traffic that uses the Kings Cross-Cambridge stopping service between these intermediate stations.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

In Hertfordshire the Kings Cross-Cambridge stopping service does this, linking Potters Bar, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Stevenage, Hitchin, Letchworth Garden City, Baldock and Royston.

There's a lot of traffic that uses the Kings Cross-Cambridge stopping service between these intermediate stations.

Yes, I'd guess that Stevenage especially is quite a big employment centre.

 

[Magdalia]

Yes, I'd guess that Stevenage especially is quite a big employment centre.

It isn't just Stevenage. For example:

Hatfield has University of Hertfordshire.
Welwyn GC has the Howard Centre for shopping adjacent to the station.
Hitchin has North Hertfordshire College.
Letchworth is HQ for North Hertfordshire DC.

 

[philjo]

Plus the schools traffic. Large numbers travel to St Christopher School in Letchworth by train - a coach picks up outside the station around 8:30am. Many also travel from Baldock/Letchworth to Hitchin Boys’ and Hitchin Girls’ schools.

 

[michael8]

Portsmouth Harbour-Portsmouth and Southsea-Fratton-Hilsea all within the city on a relatively small island with quite high frequencies?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wolverton-MK is overwhelmingly directional (am into MK, pm out), MK-Bletchley is a bit more balanced. Both commuters and schoolchildren use the route a lot.

Shoppers or people heading to Xscape don't, though, as the shopping centre is about 1km up a hill from the station, and it's as easy just to take a bus all the way rather than changing to one (and cheaper as there is no integrated ticketing). The vast majority of MK residents consider trains to be for going to London or maybe Birmingham/Manchester/Scotland, and cars (or secondly buses or cycling) for local travel.

The CBD is between the station and the shopping centre so it has more office-worker potential (though it's more expensive than the bus for an Anytime ticket, and if you buy a bus season it's valid anywhere in MK).

Integrated ticketing would probably result in some people moving from bus to rail.

That's interesting - especially as I believe the original plans for MK included a central station at all?

Indeed they didn't, and for travel *out* of MK, because the vast majority of people arrive at a station by car or taxi, this wouldn't have been a problem. The true value of MKC has been in inbound commuting from other places, which last time I checked was higher than outbound (though most of the former is by car). Local use is relatively small.

MKC is of course now used heavily for outbound too, but that's because it has the best service of the three. Because of the way people get to the station and how car travel is so quick, they would naturally gravitate to the better served one.

 

[zwk500]

Shoppers or people heading to Xscape don't, though, as the shopping centre is about 1km up a hill from the station, and it's as easy just to take a bus all the way rather than changing to one (and cheaper as there is no integrated ticketing). The vast majority of MK residents consider trains to be for going to London, and cars (or secondly buses or cycling) for local travel.

Entirely Agree. The majority of people with bags from C:MK I saw getting the train stayed on the train beyond Wolverton/Bletchley.

The CBD is between the station and the shopping centre so it has more office-worker potential (though it's more expensive than the bus for an Anytime ticket, and if you buy a bus season it's valid anywhere in MK).

Integrated ticketing would probably result in some people moving from bus to rail.

Given how spread out the central area is I'm not sure it would. If I'd been commuting to the C:MK end rather than MKC end the train wouldn't have been a competitive option against the bike or the bus. One thing they should do is arrange ticket acceptance on MK buses when there's WCML trouble but that's not a long-term thing.

 

[cle]

Is there a frequency threshold for this? OP?
I would say 2tph is not ‘metro’ by any stretch.

Are we talking more like Wilmslow-Stockport, Newcastle-Durham-Darlington, Newport-Cardiff, Leeds-York.

Ie final 1-2 stations from a major destination, with convergence adding frequency.

The Medway one is interesting though. Is it used as turn up and go locally, metro-style? Thameslink north of St Albans to Bedford is similarly, fairly uniform and 4tph+.

 

[Sankey Wire]

Plenty of people use Sankey, Warrington West, Padgate and Birchwood to travel to Warrington Central, or across the town.

This has increased considerably over the last 10 years, I think due to the cost and unreliability of the town’s municipal operator.

Birchwood to Warrington is ~5 minutes on the train, compared to 30-50 minutes on the bus.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Is there a frequency threshold for this? OP?
I would say 2tph is not ‘metro’ by any stretch.

Are we talking more like Wilmslow-Stockport, Newcastle-Durham-Darlington, Newport-Cardiff, Leeds-York.

Ie final 1-2 stations from a major destination, with convergence adding frequency.

The Medway one is interesting though. Is it used as turn up and go locally, metro-style? Thameslink north of St Albans to Bedford is similarly, fairly uniform and 4tph+.

I would say it depends on where it is. If it's a big urban area then at least every 30 minutes - but in smaller places every hour or so. In really small places, just one suitably timed arrival and departure for commuters.

 

[Llandudno]

Plenty of people use Sankey, Warrington West, Padgate and Birchwood to travel to Warrington Central, or across the town.

This has increased considerably over the last 10 years, I think due to the cost and unreliability of the town’s municipal operator.

Birchwood to Warrington is ~5 minutes on the train, compared to 30-50 minutes on the bus.

I doubt many people are using Sankey these days, aren’t there only 3-4 trains per day in each direction now that Warrington West has opened?

 

[Sankey Wire]

I doubt many people are using Sankey these days, aren’t there only 3-4 trains per day in each direction now that Warrington West has opened?

One in each direction morning and evening, surprisingly you do get a few board there but of course the vast majority now use Warrington West.

 

[PTR 444]

Hamworthy - Poole - Parkstone - Branksome - Bournemouth - Pokesdown - Christchurch

Pre-Covid, each of the above stations received at least two trains per hour. While not necessarily metro-like frequency, travel across the conurbation was quick with 3tph in total running a skip-stop pattern.

Sadly, the third train west of Bournemouth to Poole has not been reinstated since Covid, leaving Branksome and Parkstone with only one train per hour. A shambles really when we should be encouraging modal shift, yet the equivalent m1/m2 bus services are regularly hampered by congestion.

 

[InkyScrolls]

A contender would be the 'Triangle' - the electrified lines linking Leeds, Bradford, Ilkley and Skipton, all of which has services to each of the others (with the exception of Skipton to Ilkley, which could never compete timewise with the bus), at a reasonably high frequency (moreso after the upcoming timetable change).

 

[The exile]

Certainly the inner bit of the Severn Beach line, where at times the train is at its least busy between Temple Meads and Lawrence Hill.

 

[Horizon22]

Certainly the inner bit of the Severn Beach line, where at times the train is at its least busy between Temple Meads and Lawrence Hill.

I’d second this, fairly regular and shortly spaced out.

I’d also offer up services between Brighton - Worthing as they’re all fairly urban but recent timetable cuts have changed this a little.

 

[geoffk]

The Calder Valley line, by which I lived until last year, might qualify as I saw a lot of short journeys being made. The parallel A646 road is quite congested so buses are slow, although frequent between Todmorden and Halifax (but they don't serve Sowerby Bridge).

 

[swt_passenger]

Portsmouth Harbour-Portsmouth and Southsea-Fratton-Hilsea all within the city on a relatively small island with quite high frequencies?

You could probably extend that to Havant. In the Fareham direction it’s not so good, but in the pre-Covid peak periods there were a few extras getting the service up to about 4 tph, but not clock face.

 

[bib]

Not exactly a network, but Chesterfield gets 4-5tph into Sheffield from a mixure of MML and Erewash valley services run by EMR, XC and Northern which are all 1-2tph.

 

[cle]

A contender would be the 'Triangle' - the electrified lines linking Leeds, Bradford, Ilkley and Skipton, all of which has services to each of the others (with the exception of Skipton to Ilkley, which could never compete timewise with the bus), at a reasonably high frequency (moreso after the upcoming timetable change).

This is deliberate though - it is an actual metro/commuter network.

I think the OP means - where has it happened by default/accident.

The Coastways mentioned (SWML, West of Brighton - also Brighton-Lewes but deliberate) - so Medway being a perfect example where a few routes converge, and with mostly uniform stopping patterns, they make a metro-like service even though it's not planned as one explicitly.

I offered Newport-Cardiff as one but that's not local. It's like Stockport-Manchester or Runcorn-Liverpool - final trunk before a big city where the outer node gets all the calls too. But Stockport-Wilmslow-Crewe, for example, or Stockport-Macc-Stoke - could be examples, or used to be.

 

[Tayway]

Pre-Covid, the Ayrshire towns of Kilwinning, Irvine, Troon, Prestwick and Ayr were getting four trains an hour between them, with a further train per hour between Troon and Ayr most hours. Can't recall what the frequency is now, but it's still fairly regular, and I imagine a lot of people use the line for short journeys even though most trains go through to Glasgow.

A similar situation occurs in Inverclyde between Port Glasgow, Greenock and Gourock, with lots of small suburban stations for what is a fairly small conurbation in the grand scheme of things (around 70,000 between the three towns).

 

[miklcct]

I would say it depends on where it is. If it's a big urban area then at least every 30 minutes - but in smaller places every hour or so.

I won't call anything less than an even 4tph a metro. The main point of a metro is a turn-up-and-go service.

In really small places, just one suitably timed arrival and departure for commuters.

This is called "commuter train", not "metro".

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Pre-Covid, the Ayrshire towns of Kilwinning, Irvine, Troon, Prestwick and Ayr were getting four trains an hour between them, with a further train per hour between Troon and Ayr most hours. Can't recall what the frequency is now, but it's still fairly regular, and I imagine a lot of people use the line for short journeys even though most trains go through to Glasgow.

A similar situation occurs in Inverclyde between Port Glasgow, Greenock and Gourock, with lots of small suburban stations for what is a fairly small conurbation in the grand scheme of things (around 70,000 between the three towns).

Yes, or at least not big cities where you might ex

This is deliberate though - it is an actual metro/commuter network.

I think the OP means - where has it happened by default/accident.

Yes, or at least so much big cities where you might expect to find urban rail.

 

[Taunton]

A little rural one is between Weymouth South and Dorchester, where the passengers boarding at Dorchester for the last stretch can outnumber the rather thin loads of those travelling through from further east.

And a bit further eastwards the same trains do so again at Poole-Bournemouth-Christchurch, which has a good number of intermediate stops. Again, the trains can have notably lesser loads both east and west of these points.

 

[Grecian 1998]

Exeter St Davids - Exeter Central now has 5tph. Although getting from your origin into one station and then out of the other to your destination probably isn't too far off just walking between them, even if it does avoid the hill.

Bristol Temple Meads - Bristol Parkway was supposed to have 5-6tph as of December 2019 (2 superfasts to Paddington, 2 XC services, Weymouth/Westbury - Gloucester/Great Malvern and Weston SM terminators in some hours) but due to cutbacks it's down to 2-3 tph most hours - and southbound the guaranteed two trains are within 10 minutes of each other. Bit of a contrast.