Is there demand for more sleeper services?

[py_megapixel]

Every now and again, an operator comes up with an idea for some other sleeper service than the two currently operational ones (the Caledonian and the Great Western Night Riviera), either within the UK or from the UK to the continent.

I thought it might be interesting to have a thread to discuss whether there's actually demand for such services, particularly post-Covid, and whether it would actually be possible to offset the costs associated with procuring new sleeping cars.

 

[Bevan Price]

Every now and again, an operator comes up with an idea for some other sleeper service than the two currently operational ones (the Caledonian and the Great Western Night Riviera), either within the UK or from the UK to the continent.

I thought it might be interesting to have a thread to discuss whether there's actually demand for such services, particularly post-Covid, and whether it would actually be possible to offset the costs associated with procuring new sleeping cars.

I think that the need for many "shortish-distance" sleepers disappeared when it became possible for business prople to reach London (especially) before 09:00 from places like Liverpool, Leeds, Manchester, etc. on early morning services. Before electrification / introduction of HSTs,etc., your first arrival might be in late morning unless you used an overnight sleeper service.
Having seen the price increases when Caledonian introduced new stock, I wonder how many people would be prepared to pay so much?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I can see opportunities if sleeper stock was cleared to run through the channel tunnel

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I also think as the electrification network is built up that without a loco change the appeal and logistics will improve

 

[GRALISTAIR]

One other thing, with the advent of the decarbonization agenda especially if it took off in Europe, an electrically hauled sleeper train will be much better than an airplane carbon wise.

 

[HSTEd]

I expect the market for sleepers in western europe to shrink substantially compared even to current levels with the increasing deployment of long distance high speed services.

When I was a child travelling from my home in Lincolnshire to the Austrian Alps by train required a mid morning departure, with dinner in Paris before boarding a couchette.

Now if you depart in the early morning you can make it in time for a later dinner at your Alpine resort.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I expect the market for sleepers in western europe to shrink substantially compared even to current levels with the increasing deployment of long distance high speed services.

When I was a child travelling from my home in Lincolnshire to the Austrian Alps by train required a mid morning departure, with dinner in Paris before boarding a couchette.

Now if you depart in the early morning you can make it in time for a later dinner at your Alpine resort.

In fact there are widespread plans to increase sleeper services in mainland Europe (I'm glad to say, since I use such services occasionally). The problem with sleepers through the Channel Tunnel is that their usefulness would relate to their serving various places beyond the handful currently connected directly by Eurostar; but the UK authorities won't have on-train formalities (as is common in other countries), and it wouldn't be logistically or finanically feasible to set up at-a-distance UK immigration posts at every place served by the sleeper trains. Look how long it's taken to get this sorted ouf for the Eurostars from the Netherlands.

 

[Peter Kelford]

To be fair there aren't many city pairs where train travel would take about 8+ hours within the UK. Perhaps Plymouth - Aberdeen - Inverness would be one of the few longer paths but there wouldn't be enough customers as the XC service that runs it depends on customers getting on/off halfway.

 

[The Ham]

In fact there are widespread plans to increase sleeper services in mainland Europe (I'm glad to say, since I use such services occasionally). The problem with sleepers through the Channel Tunnel is that their usefulness would relate to their serving various places beyond the handful currently connected directly by Eurostar; but the UK authorities won't have on-train formalities (as is common in other countries), and it wouldn't be logistically or finanically feasible to set up at-a-distance UK immigration posts at every place served by the sleeper trains. Look how long it's taken to get this sorted ouf for the Eurostars from the Netherlands.

Although one option could be to have slepper services from just inside France/Belgium having caught an early evening service from London.

By doing so you could leave Friday evening and arrive early Saturday morning giving you more time to do what you want. The return could be overnight Sunday with an early morning service to London to then work in the capital Monday morning.

Business would be able to travel overnight (having done a days work one day) to then attend meetings the next day. By not needing to pay extra for overnight accommodation it could be not that much difference in cost than flying out the evening before.

Chances are, if flying stays low (especially with many more online meetings), then the frequency of flights are likely to reduce making them less attractive travel, especially if there's less competition resulting in higher ticket prices for flying.

 

[RT4038]

Although one option could be to have slepper services from just inside France/Belgium having caught an early evening service from London.

By doing so you could leave Friday evening and arrive early Saturday morning giving you more time to do what you want. The return could be overnight Sunday with an early morning service to London to then work in the capital Monday morning.

Business would be able to travel overnight (having done a days work one day) to then attend meetings the next day. By not needing to pay extra for overnight accommodation it could be not that much difference in cost than flying out the evening before.

Chances are, if flying stays low (especially with many more online meetings), then the frequency of flights are likely to reduce making them less attractive travel, especially if there's less competition resulting in higher ticket prices for flying.

There is no way that Sleeping car trains are going to be profitable without a substantial proportion of the passengers paying high end fares. (Just look at the Caledonian sleeper economics). These potential passengers are going to be the last to convert from flying to train, as indeed they were the first to desert the train in the 1950s. Think an average of £500 per ticket London-Frankfurt. These 'high end' passengers are only going to go by train if flights were stopped completely, and that is not really a likely scenario.

Our current Sleeper services in the UK are highly subsidised, and they continue because of the political impetus to connect remote areas to the capital. There is no such impetus with international trains; indeed with us leaving the EU, what weak case there may have been has completely gone. I cannot see large subsidies being paid for holidaymaker travel outside of the country. People will just have to holiday in the UK instead, or go for longer, less often, to bring the fare/accommodation ratio down.

This whole 'business traveller gaining by using a sleeper car train' is a bit of a fallacy. Have you actually much used a sleeper like this for business? What you say may be technically correct, but in reality (a) a stationary hotel bed is far more comfortable and consistent, (b) cost is rarely the main driver and (c) most people choose to have the extra night(s) at home . The market is small - train lovers and a few oddbods!

 

[hexagon789]

I think the UK's geography makes many sleeper routes unviable, certainly many of the routes withdrawn in the 1980s wouldn't really drum up much demand when the day services can offer reasonable arrival times in the evening.

Tbh, I would see more if a charter operation starting up perhaps, something like the Royal Scotsman but less fancy.

 

[RT4038]

In fact there are widespread plans to increase sleeper services in mainland Europe (I'm glad to say, since I use such services occasionally). The problem with sleepers through the Channel Tunnel is that their usefulness would relate to their serving various places beyond the handful currently connected directly by Eurostar; but the UK authorities won't have on-train formalities (as is common in other countries), and it wouldn't be logistically or finanically feasible to set up at-a-distance UK immigration posts at every place served by the sleeper trains. Look how long it's taken to get this sorted ouf for the Eurostars from the Netherlands.

I am not so sure that 'on-train formalities' are common nowadays at all. I have started a new thread in the International section to try and find out how many are still in existence.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a proposal by an “operator” for additional services within GB. There might have been an idea to extend the Cally beyond Inverness somewhere, but I don’t think it was the operator’s idea?

Theres been a few forum member proposals however, eg the last thread of many was in June:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-return-of-the-sleeper.205101/

 

[daodao]

Penzance/Plymouth/Bristol to Glasgow/Edinburgh might be worthwhile, although the economics would be dubious. Plymouth-Scotland was one of the last sleeper services to be withdrawn, and the distances are long enough to provide some justification for its re-introduction. It would also not require any additional stabling points for the sleeping cars, if run from Penzance.

 

[30907]

Lowland Scotland to the SW is an obvious route.

The other major conurbation which might provide a source of traffic is the M62 corridor. I would use a (Newcastle-)Leeds-Manchester-Penzance one a year - corridor but even at my most optimistic the likelihood is around nil - it would be highly seasonal.

So I'm toying with Edinburgh-Newcastle-Leeds-Plymouth-Penzance alternating with Edinburgh-Manchester-Plymouth-Penzance, but I realise it would be an early departure from EDB southbound and late arrival northbound to give me a decent night's sleep

So it's even less likely than Scotland-SW direct!

 

[quantinghome]

Sleepers work when connecting significant population centres which are sufficiently far apart for day journeys to be difficult, let's say over 300 miles. What does this give us that we don't currently have?:

(top to bottom)

1. North of Scotland (Inverness/Aberdeen) to M62 corridor and further south (i.e. Midlands, South Wales, South West)
2. Scotland Central Belt to Midlands, South Wales, South West
3. North East and M62 corridor to South West

Some of these flows could potentially be provided by adding stops / route diversions to the current sleepers. For example the London-Lowland sleeper could run via Birmingham, or the Highland sleeper on a circuitous route via Manchester and Leeds. Might work, might not.

Other connections are overlapping but it's difficult to see how they could combine and run together at useful times. For example, it wouldn't be possible to combine Aberdeen to Leeds and Edinburgh to Plymouth in the same service as either an arrival at Leeds would be far too early or arrival at Plymouth far too late.

 

[David Goddard]

So how long would an overnight EDB-PNZ service take? The daytime service takes just under 11 hours, however a sleeper would travel at lower speeds, but t would make fewer stops (possibly none between Doncaster and Bristol) so combined with crew change stops we would still probably be looking at about 12 hours. With this in mind you would need to leave either end by 20:00 each evening in order to get to the destination at a respectable time the next morning.

 

[37424]

Sleeper services highly subsidised and expensive, faster daytime services reduce the need very little else to say really, we certainly don't need anymore in the UK.

 

[CW2]

UK sleeper services are heavily subsidised. Unless there is a pressing socio-economic need, I can't see any TOC or Government agreeing to run additional sleepers.
As for international services, there has been an increase this year, but only after many years of retrenchment. The prevailing trend is still downward.
Remember there were plans for international services via the Channel Tunnel - that is why the 37/6 sub-class was produced. Common sense prevailed, and the whole idea was scrapped. (It is an object lesson in how demand modelling goes wrong if you ask the wrong questions). I can't see that circumstances have changed sufficiently to make UK - Continent sleeper services remotely viable.

 

[xotGD]

With this in mind you would need to leave either end by 20:00

That's fine. As long as you can leave work at normal time and get to the station for the train. Then a meal on board and a couple of drinks before you turn in for the night. Get up, shower and breakfast on board. Arrive in time for a 9am meeting, all is good.

 

[popeter45]

well currently there is actually one overnight service from London to the Continent (the ski train) but not a sleeper service per say as just seats only
if you ever wanted to test the waters of a Nightstar kind of service i would say try that route first with something like a renovated 373 to couchettes that in the summer could also run to Marseilles or even Barcelona

 

[Huntergreed]

I always thought there was more potential for sleeper trains at night in the UK.

Scotland - West Country (Aberdeen - Penzance, but overnight?)

Birmingham - Scotland (Glasgow/Edinburgh/Aberdeen etc?)

There's so much space on the tracks at night, I think that, if reasonably priced, a significant increase in the number of sleeper trains would make this an attractive mode of travel for many (don't want to pay for a hotel and train ticket? Kill two birds with one stone)

 

[JonathanH]

There's so much space on the tracks at night, I think that, if reasonably priced, a significant increase in the number of sleeper trains would make this an attractive mode of travel for many (don't want to pay for a hotel and train ticket? Kill two birds with one stone

The many would probably baulk at the cost of the sleeper train. At its true economic cost it may well exceed the cost of a hotel and train ticket. The only benefit is time.

Overnight possessions are clearly also a problem, especially short notice ones on two-track routes.

 

[HSTEd]

The loading gauge used in most of Europe, and especially the UK, is simply too small.

If we had the Finnish loading gauge, we could talk - but we don't.

 

[Monarch010]

Expanding sleeper services within the UK is probably a non-starter. Improvement and expansion of international services is almost certainly kiboshed by the governments post-Brexit plans.
However, if in a post-Covid world European governments are serious about promoting a green recovery, then subsidising long distance services, including sleepers, could be achieved by levying higher airport taxes, in particular on the short to medium haul routes. This is the sort of thing that joined-up economic and social policy underpins what an economic union is about.

 

[gingerheid]

Assuming HS2 happens, I think we're more likely to see the Glasgow and Edinburgh services come under pressure (and the stock go to Cornwall?) than see new services.

 

[43096]

Sleeper services highly subsidised and expensive, faster daytime services reduce the need very little else to say really, we certainly don't need anymore in the UK.

And the country is flat broke after the Covid-19 crisis. All these ideas of re-opened lines and new services will be very hard to justify in the new world order.

 

[Journeyman]

No.

Next?

Honestly, the Caledonian Sleeper has only survived because axing it is politically sensitive. It's not even remotely viable without colossal public support, and there's no way we'll have enough money to invest in more services.

Scotland to South West services were kept viable due to significant demand from military personnel, but base closures caused a slump to the point they were no longer economic.

 

[Bevan Price]

UK sleeper services are heavily subsidised. Unless there is a pressing socio-economic need, I can't see any TOC or Government agreeing to run additional sleepers.
As for international services, there has been an increase this year, but only after many years of retrenchment. The prevailing trend is still downward.
Remember there were plans for international services via the Channel Tunnel - that is why the 37/6 sub-class was produced. Common sense prevailed, and the whole idea was scrapped. (It is an object lesson in how demand modelling goes wrong if you ask the wrong questions). I can't see that circumstances have changed sufficiently to make UK - Continent sleeper services remotely viable.

It was not only common sense that stopped the Channel Tunnel sleepers -- it was also the government (Home Office, I think) that did not like the idea of sleeper services without passport / customs checks at the borders, especially for any trains travelling beyond France.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Although one option could be to have slepper services from just inside France/Belgium having caught an early evening service from London.
...

Certainly, from the London area, an evening train to Paris or Brussels and a sleeper on across the continent from there, works fine. (Once the planned new sleeper services from Paris/Brussels are running!) But the other obvious overnight connection [with British relevance] is an overlapping one, from other parts of Britain, overnight to the near continent (eg Scotland-France) - but this faces the passport etc problem of needing border checks at lots of stations, in the absence of (or refusal to have) on-train checks.

I am not so sure that 'on-train formalities' are common nowadays at all. I have started a new thread in the International section to try and find out how many are still in existence.

Indeed, on-train formalities are less common in mainland Europe than they used to be, simply because the Schengen zone has cut the need for so many checks. (Though even so, checks sometimes do still happen - and happen on the train - within the zone; I've been subject to (admittedly light-touch) checks in recent years at, eg, the German-Danish border, the French-Italian border and others.) And on-train checks still exist more routinely, further east.