• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Is there enough safeguarding/vetting checks being carried out in the rail industry?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Steve Harris

Member
Joined
11 Dec 2016
Messages
1,020
Location
ECML
After seeing this:
Train manager jailed for sex attack on passenger
on the BBC news website https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgdp4nve4po
which says :
A former train manager has been jailed for sexually assaulting an 18-year-old woman after asking to check her ticket.

Nicholas McMurray, 38, of Swansea, was working as a Great Western Railway (GWR) train manager when he requested to see the ticket and adjusted the woman's dress, British Transport Police (BTP) said.

She had been talking on her phone when McMurray sexually assaulted her in June 2024, shortly before the train from Cardiff arrived in Swansea, the force added.

The woman, who cannot be named for legal reasons, reported the incident to officers at the station and McMurray was arrested while standing by the stationary train, PA Media reported.

BTP said McMurray "lied to officers stating the victim had tried to kiss him and he had pushed her off".

The force added that McMurray was "immediately removed from duty as train manager for GWR" and no longer worked there.

He was found guilty of sexual assault and assault by penetration at Swansea Crown Court and was sentenced to seven years in prison and put on the sex offenders register for life on Friday, it added.
Made me wonder if sufficient safeguarding/vetting checks are being carried out on staff.

Is the case I've quoted just a bad apple or is it like the Met Police and there is a underlying problem which isn't being sufficiently being addressed ?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
9,522
Location
London
Surely the same is true of almost every passenger/customer-facing role though? And that occasionally sadly you will get the wrong sort of people, just as any business large enough will eventually get. Not that this any way excuses this type of behaviour of course but I wouldn’t say there’s some sort of underlying problem.

There is of course a vast difference between having a rather lacklustre customer service attitude and being accused and found guilty of sexual assault.

Other than passing a DBS - which many could pass - what would be suitable for such a role in your opinion?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

KNN

Member
Joined
9 Feb 2024
Messages
135
Location
Birmingham
Unfortunately any job which comes with a degree of power will have some people who are either drawn to the opportunities that brings or cannot cope with it and are tempted by it.

I don't think the railway is any different to any other job in that respect.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
4,689
Location
Wales
Made me wonder if sufficient safeguarding/vetting checks are being carried out on staff.
I don't see any suggestion in the article that the offender had a previous record. Checks aren't going to flag up anyone who has never been caught.
 

Steve Harris

Member
Joined
11 Dec 2016
Messages
1,020
Location
ECML
There is of course a vast difference between having a rather lacklustre customer service attitude and being accused and found guilty of sexual assault.
Indeed there is, but as in all criminality the offender starts off doing petty stuff before going into the big league. So there could be tell tell signs picked up by co-workers that something isn't quite right before someone ruins someone else's life (hence the reference to the Met and me asking if it's a bigger problem than just 1 person slipping through the net).
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
9,522
Location
London
Indeed there is, but as in all criminality the offender starts off doing petty stuff before going into the big league. So there could be tell tell signs picked up by co-workers that something isn't quite right before someone ruins someone else's life (hence the reference to the Met and me asking if it's a bigger problem than just 1 person slipping through the net).

Of course, but why have you made an assumption that there is some “underlying problem”?. A comparison to the Met doesn’t seem reasonable as I’ve not seen any other similar reports about staff before - excluding those regarding the previous leadership of TSSA.
 

KNN

Member
Joined
9 Feb 2024
Messages
135
Location
Birmingham
Of course, but why have you made an assumption that there is some “underlying problem”?. A comparison to the Met doesn’t seem reasonable as I’ve not seen any other similar reports about staff before - excluding those regarding the previous leadership of TSSA.
I think he is asking sincerely, rather than the question being rhetorical.

The answer is "no", at least none of the people who have replied have said they think there is a cultural problem within the railway.

As you say, where it has been found to exist as a "culture" it's not the customer facing parts.
 

Steve Harris

Member
Joined
11 Dec 2016
Messages
1,020
Location
ECML
I never made an assumption that there is an underlying problem, I'm asking it as a question !

The Met police have had two reports saying they are institutionally racist, yet they still won't fully acknowledge the fact. (In otherwords they won't accept there is a problem). Plus 2 officers (Couzens and Carrick) committing serious sexual offences, and only after they were sentenced did co workers start saying that their behaviour wasn't professional and tell tale signs were there etc

That has made me wonder if that the case I've quoted is a one off and there were no signs seen by Co workers or there is a underlying problem that isn't being addressed? (And therefore safeguarding/vetting needs to be improved).
 
Last edited:

GPR

Member
Joined
16 Oct 2011
Messages
134
Location
Liverpool
I’d understand the question if the person had previous but he hasn’t by the looks of it?

In my 15 years on the railway I can’t think of any people who strike me to be the kind to do what this person has done.
I’d say recruitment and management do a good job in taking on decent staff, in my TOC anyway.
 

Shaw S Hunter

Established Member
Joined
21 Apr 2016
Messages
3,292
Location
Over The Hill
And therefore vetting needs to be improved.
I wonder what you thought you meant by "vetting"? I was relatively young when I first came across the term: it described the process by which applicants to certain Civil Service roles were subjected to detailed background checks (which could be quite intrusive) and typically included formal interviews with people other than the applicant.

As mentioned upthread anyone whose role involves regular contact with vulnerable people will be subjected to a DBS check.

For many other jobs employers ask about unspent convictions, typically with a clear warning that subsequent discovery of an undeclared unspent conviction will almost inevitably lead to summary dismissal.

I'm not sure what else you expect. I'm all for seeking to deter criminal activity but do we really want to live in a police state? All the surveillance cameras are bad enough.
 

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
24,752
Location
LBK
I never made an assumption that there is an underlying problem, I'm asking it as a question !

The Met police have had two reports saying they are institutionally racist, yet they still won't fully acknowledge the fact. (In otherwords they won't accept there is a problem). Plus 2 officers (Couzens and Carrick) committing serious sexual offences, and only after they were sentenced did co workers start saying that their behaviour wasn't professional and tell tale signs were there etc

That has made me wonder if that the case I've quoted is a one off and there were no signs seen by Co workers or there is a underlying problem that isn't being addressed? (And therefore vetting needs to be improved).
What sort of vetting would you think is appropriate for someone who works a role in customer service? How do you think you would detect someone who went on to commit a sexual assault, but had no previous convictions?
 

43066

On Moderation
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
11,797
Location
London
After finding this :

on the BBC news website https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgdp4nve4po
which says :

Made me wonder if sufficient safeguarding/vetting checks are being carried out on staff.

Is the case I've quoted just a bad apple or is it like the Met Police and there is an underlying problem which isn't being sufficiently being addressed ?

The vetting carried out for railway staff is exactly the same as that for most other industries (ie a basic DBS check showing only unspent convictions, with standard/enhanced checks for roles which are eligible). In common with the vast majority of jobs, that is all the vetting that is legally allowed to be undertaken, and doing more would require a change in the law AIUI. Railway staff also cannot really to be compared to police officers who have powers of arrest etc.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Aaron1

Member
Joined
3 Nov 2019
Messages
171
Location
GRIMSBY
I will not name the station, or the TOC or the person obviously to protect this person's identity.

But at one of the stations works one of my ex school teachers, he was sacked from the school for sexually assaulting a student.

Now I like to think this is a case of the TOC giving this person another chance and helping rehabilitate as I believe people do deserve another chance, some may argue after sexually assaulting a student they don't, but I'd personally have them working then sitting there claiming benefits as no employer will touch them.
 

43066

On Moderation
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
11,797
Location
London
I will not name the station, or the TOC or the person obviously to protect this person's identity.

But at one of the stations works one of my ex school teachers, he was sacked from the school for sexually assaulting a student.

Now I like to think this is a case of the TOC giving this person another chance and helping rehabilitate as I believe people do deserve another chance, some may argue after sexually assaulting a student they don't, but I'd personally have them working then sitting there claiming benefits as no employer will touch them.

Do you know whether the person was ever prosecuted/convicted?

Even if they were, station roles will only be eligible for a basic DBS check. These don’t show spent convictions, so the TOC wouldn’t have any way of knowing. Note that it’s also unlawful for employers to discriminate based on spent convictions, even if they come to light some other way.
 
Last edited:

GatwickDepress

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2013
Messages
2,521
Location
Leeds
Short of every HR department gaining the Minority Report ability to predict crime, there's no way to avoid employing people who may commit a crime in the future.

I hope the woman is doing better now justice has been dealt and is getting all the support she needs.
 

PyrahnaRanger

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2022
Messages
266
Location
Lancashire
Indeed there is, but as in all criminality the offender starts off doing petty stuff before going into the big league. So there could be tell tell signs picked up by co-workers that something isn't quite right before someone ruins someone else's life (hence the reference to the Met and me asking if it's a bigger problem than just 1 person slipping through the net).
There isn't necessarily a detectable build up. I know of one chap who regularly passed CRB (as they were at the time) and County Council Social Service checks, and was regularly driving vulnerable people around for years with never a complaint - one of the most reliable and well-loved employees. Until the day he didn't turn up for work, as it turned out that he'd been sexually abusing his own daughter for years, unbeknownst to anyone.

Railway staff also cannot really to be compared to police officers who have powers of arrest etc.
I thought RPIs could detain (but not arrest) people until they had details?

Do you know whether the person was ever prosecuted/convicted?

Even if they were, station roles will only be eligible for a basic DBS check. These don’t show spent convictions, so the TOC wouldn’t have any way of knowing. Note that it’s also unlawful for employers to discriminate based on spent convictions, even if they come to light some other way.
@43066 this isn't aimed at you, I'm just using your post for context:

Many people think a DBS is a pass/fail thing. In reality, it's purely a list of convictions, and it's then down to the employer to decide if they make the person unemployable. In the case described, a conviction for sexually abusing a student* would make it unwise for someone to work in a school, but may not be as much of an issue for someone on a gate line in a station.

*This can cover a lot of ground: as an example, this could be a 40 year old teacher in a primary interfering with a 5 year old, which is obviously a very deliberate and despicable act. It could also be an 18 year old office assistant in a secondary school meeting a 15 year old pupil in a night club, which is much less deliberate, but still counted under the same law.
 
Joined
11 Jan 2015
Messages
850
Though not relevant in a railway context there is a small element of pass/fail in DBS checks in that a very few people, who have committed more serious offences, may be barred (by the DBS) from working with children or vulnerable adults. It's not relevant to the railway because, unless I've missed some rare occupation, no one on the railway has regular unsupervised and frequent access to children or vulnerable adults.
 

styles

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2014
Messages
822
Location
Midlothian
I'm inclined to suggest that this is unfortunately unavoidable.

We should of course have strict vetting, but you simply cannot prevent all future criminals from becoming criminals.

Unless there's evidence that this is a widespread problem in the industry (I'm unaware of any such evidence), then while an individual investigation is needed, I'd be reluctant to trigger industry-wide reviews based on a single, seemingly opportunistic, incident.

The bloke has been found guilty of a Schedule 18 offence, which means it will never become spent, and will show up on any DBS or Disclosure Scotland check, for life. Short of checking his browser history before employing him though, and with no obvious advance signs or red flags about his behaviour, there's not a great deal you can do to prevent him having gotten the job in the first place.

Arguably more could always be done to improve on-board safety, but from the description of the location of this event, he would've been in sight of CCTV, so he clearly hasn't been deterred by knowing he'd be on video.
 

43066

On Moderation
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
11,797
Location
London
I thought RPIs could detain (but not arrest) people until they had details?

It’s largely a theoretical power that in general isn’t used. Railway enforcement officers have limited powers to detain in some circumstances, but there is no comparison with the police who can arrest people on suspicion, put them into police cars and cells etc.

Many people think a DBS is a pass/fail thing. In reality, it's purely a list of convictions, and it's then down to the employer to decide if they make the person unemployable. In the case described, a conviction for sexually abusing a student* would make it unwise for someone to work in a school, but may not be as much of an issue for someone on a gate line in a station.

Also important to emphasise that a basic DBS check, which is all the vast majority of roles are eligible for, only shows unspent convictions. There’s nothing an employer can do about these for most roles - and quite rightly so.

Only standard and enhanced checks show spent convictions/cautions, subject to filtering.
 

Ghostbus

On Moderation
Joined
17 Sep 2024
Messages
331
Location
England
There's definitely a cultural problem on the railway if the thread about what happens in the break room is any guide. Although obviously that would suggest those at most risk are young female employees, not passengers.

There is a potentially far more effective way to root these people out than a pre-hire DBS check. The not unrelated practice of making it a condition of employment to report any colleagues whose behaviour isn't beyond reproach when to comes to verbal/physical harassment.

If this TM is indeed guilty of what sounds like a serious sexual offence where he was literally unable to control himself when he thought an opportunity presented itself, then chances are he will have said or done something prior to this that indicated he was a risk.

Or alternatively, the guy will have exhibited other signs of serious changes in behaviour that could also indicate a risk exists - e.g. they're someone whose behaviour has been impeccable, but one day turns up smelling of drink.

This is where the railway being heavily covered by CCTV is an advantage. So if the man is reported and can't explain himself, he gets fired (or the help and support he needs). Risk averted, and if he has to be dismissed, he's free to get a job where he doesn't interact with other people to any significant degree. They do exist. Bin man. Home working call centre operator. Etc.

DBS checking makes no real sense given how unlikely it is that anyone gets a job in customer service at the railway specifically for the opportunity to sexually assault passengers. Then again, it's not exactly ideal to have a teacher who apparently got fired for sexually assaulting a pupil, working somewhere they're regularly going to be in contact with unaccompanied school children.
 

43066

On Moderation
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
11,797
Location
London
There's definitely a cultural problem on the railway if the thread about what happens in the break room is any guide. Although obviously that would suggest those at most risk are young female employees, not passengers.

There isn’t anything of the sort in my experience. Many people commenting on that thread had never set foot in a train crew messroom. Some female traincrew also commented that they hadn’t experienced any problems, but that seemed to fall on deaf ears.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There is a potentially far more effective way to root these people out than a pre-hire DBS check. The not unrelated practice of making it a condition of employment to report any colleagues whose behaviour isn't beyond reproach when to comes to verbal/physical harassment.

This already happens, but by that time the person has already been employed. A DBS check shows unspent convictions at the pre employment stage.
 
Last edited:

Ghostbus

On Moderation
Joined
17 Sep 2024
Messages
331
Location
England
There isn’t anything of the sort in my experience.
But is that experience relevant beyond being one random account?
This already happens
Are we talking about the same thing here? I can see how certain railway employees would be obliged to report signs of substance abuse in certain colleagues for example. But reporting signs that someone poses a risk of sexual harassment or abuse, and in all cases? And specifically, facing serious consequences if they do not? I would be surprised to say the least if this is already a standard part of a railway employment contract.

The subtext of this thread is that everyone thought you could basically trust the police. Until we realised to our horror that the underlying problem wasn't a few bad apples that the system had failed to detect and remove by some freak accident.

It was a pervasive culture within the force of not taking their duty of care seriously. Not appreciating that they serve us. And indeed even tolerating, maybe even encouraging, toxic masculinity in certain roles. It was certainly a culture of denial. There was no wider or systemic problem. How many times was that said by those whose literal job it was to know? Too many.

All that in a force with (I assume) the literal power to inspect any personal device a police officer might use to share their deplorable behaviour with colleagues without having to obtain a warrant, merely a reasonable suspicion that professional standards are being flouted.

It's lucky for the police there were so many other scandals and distracting world events going on at the time, because in any other era that would have been a defining and indelible stain on this country's psyche in the same way Hillsborough or the Miner's Strike has been

Not that those scandals seem to have improved police standards much in light of these more recent events. Although in those cases the official cover ups lasted decades, so maybe we're getting somewhere, albeit slowly.

We're already seeing a small scandal developing as people suddenly ask themselves, no doubt in light of the Horizon scandal, why the railway has such incredible power over us already. The power to ruin our careers and credit rating for offences that in other walks of life, are so triival as to ironically not even get a police officer out of their seat, never mind onto a typewriter.

Railway personnel are not police officers, but they are uniformed and they do occupy a position of some authority over the general public, even if it is wholly implied. The usual problems aside, there's still a pervasive culture of deference among the wider travelling public.

It is surely still the case that, because of some possibly misplaced sense of trust, nobody would question a unformed railway employee taking a young female passenger aside in the apparent course of railway business. Maybe they should?

Other than it being good practice all round, is there anything in the current HR manual that explicity says such things should always be conducted with witnesses and ideally under the gaze if CCTV? I don't know. I hope so.

Ironically it is arguably only the #MeToo movement, police scandals, and the general realisation that there is something deeply wrong with how this country balances trust and rights, that these days you're probably taking a big risk taking schoolgirl aside for a quiet word, because she's going to kick right off. So a predator naturally only targets the ones who look shy and weak.

Such people would indeed probably pass unnoticed among their colleagues, who would surely say such things never even happen on the railway. We already know many schoolgirls don't even bother reporting sexual assaults in school. Why would their commute be any different?

Blanket denial or attributing incidents to a few bad apples isn't going to cut it anymore. Only clear proof that there is no problem. Statistics that are actually challenged for their robustness, rather than an assumption that because it's data it must be an accurate picture.

Here are the specific reasons why are confident theres no problem. Here's what we do. Here's how we are proactive. Here's how we ensure we don't recruit the wrong kind of person for this role, and root out those who are already here, without being discrimatory or falling into long debunked stereotypes about the nature of abuse and abusers.

Don't underestimate the risk, I would say. I can't see anyone actually wanting to join the railway just for the chance to sexually assault young women passengers. But it can't have escaped anyone's notice that if that was your aim, even disregarding the DBS element, you'd surely find it far easier to join the railway than become a teacher or police officer, and there would be far more opportunities than other far more easily obtained roles.

It's perhaps time we had a second classification of position of trust, somewhere above bin man, but below teacher/police officer/clergy. Perhaps we already do, in the law, without it being specified at the level of individual roles? I genuinely don't know.

What definitely needs to end though, is the culture of being reactive rather than proactive. It doesn't work, and we've got a mountain of evidence to show it now. I suspect most people already know risk is a big factor for some when choosing not to travel on the railway. But perhaps they have always assumed staff only have a positive role to play there. Based on what, I wonder.
 

Blackpool boy

On Moderation
Joined
29 Apr 2024
Messages
197
Location
Blackpool
If this TM is indeed guilty of what sounds like a serious sexual offence where he was literally unable to control himself when he thought an opportunity presented itself, then chances are he will have said or done something prior to this that indicated he was a risk.
What do you mean IF, he has been found guilty and sentenced to a spell in jail.
 

43066

On Moderation
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
11,797
Location
London
But is that experience relevant beyond being one random account?

It isn’t just “one random account” it’s years of experience of working in the industry, and entering messrooms, and other traincrew have said similar. However some people have clearly decided that there is a problem, despite not working in the industry themselves. I am at a loss as to why, to be honest.

But reporting signs that someone poses a risk of sexual harassment or abuse, and in all cases? And specifically, facing serious consequences if they do not? I would be surprised to say the least if this is already a standard part of a railway employment contract.

It isn’t ever going to part of a contract to “report signs that someone poses a risk” - because it’s totally subjective and would be unenforceable. However this kind of thing is taken seriously on the rare occasions it arises.

I suspect most people already know risk is a big factor for some when choosing not to travel on the railway. But perhaps they have always assumed staff only have a positive role to play there. Based on what, I wonder.

You are far, far more likely to be sexually assaulted by another passenger than a staff member. There is zero evidence of a cultural problem on the railway, and I’m not sure what purpose this thread serves to be honest.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
15,013
Location
Isle of Man
Of course, but why have you made an assumption that there is some “underlying problem”?. A comparison to the Met doesn’t seem reasonable as I’ve not seen any other similar reports about staff before - excluding those regarding the previous leadership of TSSA.
RMT leadership also.

Railway staff also cannot really to be compared to police officers who have powers of arrest etc.
Railway staff have the power to detain people under the Regulation of Railways Act. It may or may not be a theoretical power- I fully appreciate RPIs are mostly told not to use it- but it is a power that is there. And that's before we consider whether, say, refusing to let someone exit through a gateline is 'detaining' them.

Don't underestimate the risk, I would say. I can't see anyone actually wanting to join the railway just for the chance to sexually assault young women passengers. But it can't have escaped anyone's notice that if that was your aim, even disregarding the DBS element, you'd surely find it far easier to join the railway than become a teacher or police officer, and there would be far more opportunities than other far more easily obtained roles.
I'd agree. Railway staff have access to plenty of vulnerable people and so the risk is undoubtedly there.

I'm actually surprised that on-train staff are not subject to an Enhanced DBS as standard. It seems to be a gap in the way the legislation is worded: an employer can (not must) request an Enhanced DBS if you are "driving a vehicle for children" (though they can only access the barred lists if you do this frequently and if the vehicle is only carrying children) and it would take a bit of legal crowbarring to say a train guard or RPI is driving a vehicle for children.

It seems a huge gap in the legislation that on-train staff aren't routinely subject to Enhanced DBS. Given the responsibility of the role, it seems a huge oversight.
 

Gostav

Member
Joined
14 May 2016
Messages
527
There is a potentially far more effective way to root these people out than a pre-hire DBS check. The not unrelated practice of making it a condition of employment to report any colleagues whose behaviour isn't beyond reproach when to comes to verbal/physical harassment.
So for your “absolute perfect security”, a DBS check isn’t enough, but double or even triple checks are needed? I guess that won’t be cheap. (PS. How much cost for a DBS check?)
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
15,013
Location
Isle of Man
What sort of vetting would you think is appropriate for someone who works a role in customer service?
I think on board staff should be subject to an Enhanced DBS. When you consider the nature of the role, the power the roleholder has, and the access the role affords to vulnerable people, it's amazing that it isn't subject to Enhanced DBS.

I have an Enhanced DBS for my current job even though I rarely leave my office. I had an Enhanced DBS when I was a legal adviser at Citizens Advice. In both cases I completely agree that I should be subject to Enhanced DBS, yet I had and have far less access to vulnerable people than anyone working on a train does.
 

Efini92

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
2,002
It isn’t just “one random account” it’s years of experience of working in the industry, and entering messrooms, and other traincrew have said similar. However some people have clearly decided that there is a problem, despite not working in the industry themselves. I am at a loss as to why, to be honest.
The customer is always right :D
 

dastocks

Member
Joined
3 Nov 2021
Messages
223
Location
Hove
A basic DBS check costs £21.50 currently.
"£24.85 for one I obtained late last year, but that might have been a bit more than a 'basic' check. It's all down to what the potential employer is looking for.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top