TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
This all does seem to be rather far-fetched. Realistically, calling all TfW services at Llanfairpwll except perhaps the three "Intercity" services per day would be a good idea though.
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Is there room for more paths between Anglesey and the North Wales coast?
- Thread starter Andrew*Debbie
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Jim the Jim
Member
Road closures often apply unnecessarily to cyclists, so this might not mean anything.
Andrew*Debbie
Member
My understanding is the engineers are concerned about the vibrations caused by cycling on the road deck.
An independent engineering review is ongoing. Results due next week. That may open the roadway to bicycles or reconfirm the ban.
There is talk of allowing bicycles on the lower deck of the Britania bridge. At this point it is just talk. Bicycles are legal on the A55 between Llanfairpwll and Bangor but it isn't the safest place to cycle.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Not sure I fancy walking over a bridge where that is a concern! Or is it felt there are enough supports for it to stay up even if one or two fail, they just don't want them shaken loose and landing on anyone's head?
Andrew*Debbie
Member
I've highlighted the existing trains that might be able to do that. I have not looked at what happens if you add 5 minutes dwell time at LPG.
Error corrections welcome.
HHD --> CDF and HHD --> Manchester or Manchester Airport
0425 request stops VLY and LPG
0502 request stops VLY and LPG
0535 Premire service no stops
0625 request stop all Anglesey stations
0726 request stop all Anglesey stations
0805 request stop all Anglesey stations
0923 request stop all Anglesey stations
1041 request stop VLY
1133 no stops
1148 request stop VLY LPG
1307 request stops Rhosniger, Ty Croes, Bodorgan
1434 no stops
1538 request stop all Angley stations
1636 no stops
1728 request stop all Anglesey stations
1826 request stop all Anglesey stations
1922 request stop all Anglesey stations
2032 not important to commuters
CDF --> HHD and Manchester --> HHD
Bangor Departure Times shown
0839 request stops all Anglesey stations (starts at Crewe)
0941 no stops
0945 request stops at Bodorgan, Ty Croes, Rhosneigr
1050 no stops "intercity"
1106 request stops all Anglesey stations
1146 no stops
1244 request stops all Anglesey stations
1341 request stops all Anglesey stations
1444 request stops all Anglesey stations
1543 request stops all Anglesey stations
1551 no stops
1644 request stops LPG VLY
1742 request stops all Anglesey stations
1848 no stops
1943 request stops all Anglesey stations
2147 request stops all Anglesey stations
CDF - Cardiff Central
HHD - Holyhead
VLY - Valley
LPG - Llanfairpwll
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Of the trains just listed, the 1848 down might be of some use, but would slightly delay the 1926 up. The others aren't at busy times.
If there is overcrowding in the peaks, the first step might be to look at reworking the stock diagrams.
If there is overcrowding in the peaks, the first step might be to look at reworking the stock diagrams.
Andrew*Debbie
Member
I think the initial concern was risk of injury from a falling rod. Shortly before the closure there was work to secure some of the suspension rods with straps.
There is a risk of catestrophic failure. I wish I could see the engineering report. I'd like to know how they model the bridge and what the model predicts if one rod fails.
Maybe some more detail will leak out when the independent review is done. Last few days press and opposistion politicians are focusing on surface rust on the expansion plates < ugh >
Anecdotally the 1644 and 1742 down are the buisiest. The 1644 is a 2-car 158. There were no free seats on the 1644 yesterday.
The 0805 up has over 100 passengers leave at Bangor but it is a 3 car 175 with available seats.
For this to make a real difference to congestion, we need more trains, more carrages and a push to get people out of their cars.
Traffic bad even outside the rush hours. 2PM today:
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LSWR Cavalier
Established Member
This is a crisis situation. People could be "encouraged" to take shuttle buses on to the Mainland. They could leave their vehicles in the first lane of the dual carriageway, plenty of space there. Buses to Bangor station and the train to work in Manchester or wherever.
One would have thought that experts were keeping an eye on the bridge, much renewal work must have been done on it in the past. Or perhaps not, is it in near-original condition?
Reminds me of the sudden closure of Pont Abermaw, Barmouth Bridge.
One would have thought that experts were keeping an eye on the bridge, much renewal work must have been done on it in the past. Or perhaps not, is it in near-original condition?
Reminds me of the sudden closure of Pont Abermaw, Barmouth Bridge.
The problem is the queues over the bridge, so getting a shuttle bus isn't going to make those go away.
Seriously? Is the bus meant to stop at every car or would they just walk up the live lane?
Experts keeping an eye on it is why it has been closed. Otherwise the first we'd have known about the problem would have been a car ending up in the Menai Straight. Regular renewals have taken place, but AIUI only hangers showing signs of wear have been replaced, with many still the original or at least very old fittings.
LSWR Cavalier
Established Member
Yes, seriously! A bus could replace 50 cars, that would 'speed up' traffic a lot and reduce queues. Cars could park in the first lane leaving room to walk by on the nearside. Buses, essential delivery vehicles etc could use the fast lane (max 20 mph).
I remember queues there many years ago. A situation could arise where food stores on Ynys Mon could not get deliveries, and where ambulances get stuck. I think strong action is needed.
I remember queues there many years ago. A situation could arise where food stores on Ynys Mon could not get deliveries, and where ambulances get stuck. I think strong action is needed.
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So people with pets, children, luggage, disabilites etc, would be required to get out of their cars with a live lane of HGVs next to them? Not a chance the police would sanction it.
Strong action is needed, but this is not the solution.
Andrew*Debbie
Member
The bridge is inspected every two years with a very thorough inspection every six. The 2019 inspection noted several issues. A plan was agreed that included additional frequent inspections.
There has been some work on the bridge in the past year, mostly painting.
Work to replace the suspension rods is already underway. The contractor needs to design tools, design new suspension rods and fabricate both. On-site work was set to begin Summer 2023.
The most recent inspection found an unexpected risk and engineers strongly recommened closing the bridge immediatly.
How much of the problem at the time of your photo is linked road freight including that heading to/from Ireland for specific ferries every 6 hours or so, tradespeople and others starting and ending their journey nowhere near a railway station? Every little helps, and certainly the railway industry can try to do its bit where it plausibly can but unfortunately many trips probably aren't in scope for the railway to pick up.
It would be a lot safer to set up a contraflow and use one carriageway a la M20 Operation Stack. But you've also got traffic from Beaumaris and Amlwch and a bit from the South converging on the junction for which this idea doesn't work.
2pm Friday is probably a peak eastbound time. But it does make sense to encourage commuters onto rail - how about temporary reduced fares?
There’s been talk in the past of a third ‘tidal flow’ lane (which the Britannia bridge is wide enough to support), never taken forward generally because of safety concerns in general use. Does anyone know if that’s been considered for this crisis?
With strict 30 mph speed limits and visible traffic police presence the safety risks would be much lower than a permanent third lane; the tidal lane would be open only in the bridge peaks, managed with cones like the Mersey Tunnels police do on the Wallasey tunnel each day (and let’s remember the A55 teams have probably more experience than anywhere in the use of cones!).
As a very regular user of both bridges I know congestion can occur both ways simultaneously, but there are obvious peaks (mornings off the island, evenings onto the island, certain ferries from Holyhead, Sunday flows off the island which will reduce after half term fortunately) that a temporary, highly supervised third lane would give a real mitigation to.
With strict 30 mph speed limits and visible traffic police presence the safety risks would be much lower than a permanent third lane; the tidal lane would be open only in the bridge peaks, managed with cones like the Mersey Tunnels police do on the Wallasey tunnel each day (and let’s remember the A55 teams have probably more experience than anywhere in the use of cones!).
As a very regular user of both bridges I know congestion can occur both ways simultaneously, but there are obvious peaks (mornings off the island, evenings onto the island, certain ferries from Holyhead, Sunday flows off the island which will reduce after half term fortunately) that a temporary, highly supervised third lane would give a real mitigation to.
Andrew*Debbie
Member
Yes, it is getting serious consideration.
I have concerns for safety of cyclists if this goes ahead. The A55 is open to bicycles between Llanfairpwll and Bangor.
I'll probably be cycling over the Britania bridge on the 7th and 9th due to the industrial action at Network Rail.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Must admit I didn't know it was open to cyclists. I wonder how many others don't?
The merging back down to the original lanes would take away any benefits from an extra lane if it's only a 'tidal flow' lane.
It looks like the width exists to keep 2 lanes on one side all the way through the single carriageway section, so it would be of considerable benefit to the side that gets the extra lane if it eliminates the bottleneck completely. However the off-peak traffic will need to drop low enough in both directions to allow the lane to be switched without causing massive tailbacks. It might also need some reconstruction of the road surface at the gore for the central reservation at each end, which would probably kill the idea as an emergency solution.
It's an A road not a motorway.
Why? the road either side is a 4-lane dual carriageway (not to mention that some traffic will peel off at the junctions each end).
You would have to have the speed restriction on at all times, admittedly, and some work to the crash barriers etc would be needed, especially at the mainland end.
.
The tidal flow at the Blackwall Tunnel has worked well enough for years.
Not all A roads are open to Cyclists - Certain stretches are classed as 'Special Roads' and have prohibitions in force. These are usually tunnels but I think there are some open roads that function as quasi-motorways. Southwick Hill tunnel on the A27 is one example: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.845...4!1sTJZBlNOAIoc8WBCy0XqCjA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192., also the A55 itself at Penmaenmawr Tunnels https://www.google.com/maps/@53.266...4!1sQg5xAgbbUQiAGC0RzvLAfw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Fair point.
In any case, a cyclist has an alternative - they could walk their bike across the Telford bridge without losing more than 2 min. (A dispensation could allow disabled cyclists to ride across - there aren't enough of them to cause the bridge to collapse).
Extra subsidy on a temporary basis for bus and train tickets between Bangor and Anglesey is about the only thing that could be done. If the Welsh Government wanted to pay for it of course. A temporary car park expansion would also be possible at Llanfairpwll, but it's doubtful how much difference that would make in practice.
Otherwise, the queues will eventually become self-regulating.
Andrew*Debbie
Member
This is the first draft of what I will be sending to various politicians and employers. It is a simplification of what is possible but I want to keep this short.
A third Menai crossing will take seven years and cost £400 million. That will not help while the Menai Bridge is closed for repairs and takes money that could be spent elsewhere like the NHS. We need something that can be done quickly and at a low cost.
A rail shuttle service between Llanfairpwll and Bangor needs no new infrastructure and no planning permission. A shuttle train could run every 30 minutes, complementing the existing service. Every train would take 150 to 200 cars off the bridge.
Small changes to existing bus routes would connect the council park and rides at Gaerwen and Llanfairpwll to the station. Bangor University, Coleg Menai and St.Gerard’s are a short walk from Bangor station. The 5C bus connects Bangor Station to Ysbyty Gwynedd, Parc Menai and Caernarfon every 15 minutes. These destinations account for a large portion of the trips between Anglesey and the mainland.
Transport for Wales rail have new trains entering service in a few weeks. Two of the trains replaced by new ones could be used for the shuttle.
A third Menai crossing will take seven years and cost £400 million. That will not help while the Menai Bridge is closed for repairs and takes money that could be spent elsewhere like the NHS. We need something that can be done quickly and at a low cost.
A rail shuttle service between Llanfairpwll and Bangor needs no new infrastructure and no planning permission. A shuttle train could run every 30 minutes, complementing the existing service. Every train would take 150 to 200 cars off the bridge.
Small changes to existing bus routes would connect the council park and rides at Gaerwen and Llanfairpwll to the station. Bangor University, Coleg Menai and St.Gerard’s are a short walk from Bangor station. The 5C bus connects Bangor Station to Ysbyty Gwynedd, Parc Menai and Caernarfon every 15 minutes. These destinations account for a large portion of the trips between Anglesey and the mainland.
Transport for Wales rail have new trains entering service in a few weeks. Two of the trains replaced by new ones could be used for the shuttle.
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To take 175 cars off the road (each, on average, containing say 1.5 people) would require 260 seats - so 4cars?
Are there traincrew to do this?
Andrew*Debbie
Member
The email I sent has slightly lower (but still optimistic) numbers of cars off the road.
TBH, the shuttle would likely get whatever cascades down to the bottom following the introduction of new trains. That might be a 153. Anything would be an improvment.
One limit is going to be parking. There isn't enough at Llafairpwll and I don't think the ~70 bays are meant to serve the station. There is a free car park nearby with about 50 bays. There are two park and rides that could feed in. Llanfairpwll is 72 + 5 disabled. Gaerwen is 114+7. The Llanfairpwll p&r sees some use already, but I've never seen a car parked at Gaerwen. There is bus service to the station but it might be hard to convince people to use it.
Most of the people using Llanfairpwll now either walk or have a car drop off and pick them up.
There is the possiblity of adding more parking, but that takes time and money.
Valley station would benfit from a real car park. There appears to be room for one, but it would need planning permission, time and money.
TBH, the shuttle would likely get whatever cascades down to the bottom following the introduction of new trains. That might be a 153. Anything would be an improvment.
One limit is going to be parking. There isn't enough at Llafairpwll and I don't think the ~70 bays are meant to serve the station. There is a free car park nearby with about 50 bays. There are two park and rides that could feed in. Llanfairpwll is 72 + 5 disabled. Gaerwen is 114+7. The Llanfairpwll p&r sees some use already, but I've never seen a car parked at Gaerwen. There is bus service to the station but it might be hard to convince people to use it.
Most of the people using Llanfairpwll now either walk or have a car drop off and pick them up.
There is the possiblity of adding more parking, but that takes time and money.
Valley station would benfit from a real car park. There appears to be room for one, but it would need planning permission, time and money.
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Llandudno
Established Member
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Every Holyhead train should call at Llanfairpwll as this would then act as a railhead for most of Anglesey rather people driving the ‘wrong way’ to Holyhead or having to cross either bridge to Bangor thereby adding to the congestion.
Andrew*Debbie
Member
Most of the TfW trains do, other than the 3 "Intercity express" trains.
Earlier in this thread, I posted the TfW timetable and highlighted trains that could reasonably be asked to stop. I did not consider knock-on effects to the timetable.
I'm sure not if a TfW Premire intercity service stop at Llanfairpwll is workable, let alone a good idea. LPG is a short platform and normally the guard opens one door near the middle of the train. Shepherding passengers to the correct door will be difficult.
I'm against having the Avanti Voyagers stop. There is at least one daily 10-car voyager. I could imagine passengers boarding at Bangor in the wrong half and ending up at Holyhead. Even with the 5 car, I can see people not getting to the door in reasonable time or missing it entirely. There possible operation issues that I know little or nothing about. Are staff trained for single door operation, will a 10 car Voyager block the level crossing?
The staff are trained for single door operation, although the wisdom of doing that at Llanfair would be questionable if it gets the usage required to justify a stop. If the driver stopped in the platform, yes it would block the level crossing although that could be solved by putting the stop board further up the track.
Andrew*Debbie
Member
The LPG-BNG shuttle, existing services stop all stations,and opening up the Britania bridge lower deck access road to bicycles were discussed yesterday at a Senedd techincial meeting. TfW rail had a representive present. I don't know if Network Rail were there. I know nothing else about the meeting. If I can find a transcript, I'll post a link.
Opening the Menai bridge to cycling was supposed to be part of an independent engineering review due 10 days ago. Nothing changed. Either the review found the risk to high, it wasn't done or it has not been acted on.
I've been looking at the cars queueing to cross the bridge on my way to the station. Nearly all of them are single occupant.
9 November Update from the Welsh Government.
Bridge still open only to pedistrians in limited numbers. Cyclists must continue to walk accross on the footway.
Coleg Llandrillo Menai students can use their Anglesey council 16+ bus pass on M-F rail service between Anglesey and Bangor. This will not help traffic, but more students will get to school on time.
A gate and barrier system will be installed on the Menai Bridge. This will allow emergency service vehicles under 7.5T to use the Menai bridge if the Britania bridge is closed to all vehicles.
gov.wales
Opening the Menai bridge to cycling was supposed to be part of an independent engineering review due 10 days ago. Nothing changed. Either the review found the risk to high, it wasn't done or it has not been acted on.
I've been looking at the cars queueing to cross the bridge on my way to the station. Nearly all of them are single occupant.
9 November Update from the Welsh Government.
Bridge still open only to pedistrians in limited numbers. Cyclists must continue to walk accross on the footway.
Coleg Llandrillo Menai students can use their Anglesey council 16+ bus pass on M-F rail service between Anglesey and Bangor. This will not help traffic, but more students will get to school on time.
A gate and barrier system will be installed on the Menai Bridge. This will allow emergency service vehicles under 7.5T to use the Menai bridge if the Britania bridge is closed to all vehicles.
A5 Menai Bridge: frequently asked questions | GOV.WALES
Answers to common questions about the Menai Suspension Bridge.
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