Is this excess possible?

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Smethwickian

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And if so, how much? I'm puzzled, because I have had two different answers so far from ticket clerks.

I wish to excess the RETURN half ONLY of the following (on a Sunday, when no time restrictions apply to either product):
From super off-peak return, Smethwick Galton Bridge to London Terminals, route High Wycombe (full fare £25)
To off-peak return, same stations, route any permitted (full fare £47).

Is the answer:
(A) Sorry, that's not possible;
(B) Thank you, that will be £11 please; or
(C) Thank you, that will be £22 please.

I was given answer (A) by Coventry station travel centre and answer (C) by Birmingham New Street staff on the same day. I only need someone to explain why (B) might be valid to have the full set, though I'm less confident of that owing to the change of ticket type.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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It is B if you only want one direction changed, C if you want both directions changed. A would apply if you had a TOC specific fare and wanted to travel by a different TOC.
 

OwlMan

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And if so, how much? I'm puzzled, because I have had two different answers so far from ticket clerks.

I wish to excess the RETURN half ONLY of the following (on a Sunday, when no time restrictions apply to either product):
From super off-peak return, Smethwick Galton Bridge to London Terminals, route High Wycombe (full fare £25)
To off-peak return, same stations, route any permitted (full fare £47).

Is the answer:
(A) Sorry, that's not possible;
(B) Thank you, that will be £11 please; or
(C) Thank you, that will be £22 please.

I was given answer (A) by Coventry station travel centre and answer (C) by Birmingham New Street staff on the same day. I only need someone to explain why (B) might be valid to have the full set, though I'm less confident of that owing to the change of ticket type.

A is wrong ( I am not surprised as some of Coventry's staff seem clueless)
B & C are both "right". Officially you should pay the full difference (C) but some ticket machines have not been updated and use the old method which adds half the difference and gives the answer £11 (B).

Peter
 

LexyBoy

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For a change of route, the excess is half the difference. For change of ticket type it is the full difference.

So the question is, what are the rules when the appropriate ticket type for the new route is different to the original ticket type? I would expect it to still fall under "change of route", though I don't remember seeing anything from The Manual covering this.

edit: a very similar question actually came up last month :oops: It should be half the difference, confirmed by EC's ticketing guidelines posted by yorkie in the thread linked to in the second post.
 
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thedbdiboy

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B & C are both "right". Officially you should pay the full difference (C) but some ticket machines have not been updated and use the old method which adds half the difference and gives the answer £11 (B).
Peter
B is the correct current method, and C is wrong. It is in The Manual. Some TOCs have not yet updated all their TIS so if staff need to be aware of the rules and not just rely on 'what the machine says'!
 

hairyhandedfool

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For a change of route, the excess is half the difference. For change of ticket type it is the full difference.

So the question is, what are the rules when the appropriate ticket type for the new route is different to the original ticket type? I would expect it to still fall under "change of route", though I don't remember seeing anything from The Manual covering this.

edit: a very similar question actually came up last month :oops: It should be half the difference, confirmed by EC's ticketing guidelines posted by yorkie in the thread linked to in the second post.
Change of ticket type is for when the ticket is no longer valid due to a time/day restriction, not simply because the ticket type is changed, this is why it is the full difference.
 

island

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A is wrong ( I am not surprised as some of Coventry's staff seem clueless)
B & C are both "right". Officially you should pay the full difference (C) but some ticket machines have not been updated and use the old method which adds half the difference and gives the answer £11 (B).

Peter
I thought change of route was able to be excessed one way only for half the difference?
 

General Zod

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It is B if you only want one direction changed, C if you want both directions changed. A would apply if you had a TOC specific fare and wanted to travel by a different TOC.
HHF ,
I'm a bit confused here but isn't a super off-peak return, Smethwick Galton Bridge to London Terminals, route High Wycombe (full fare £25) Chiltern specific as it is route High Wycombe and no other TOC works that line / route ?
 

Indigo2

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Not true - you could also use London Midland, Virgin, CrossCountry and/or First Great Western for part of the journey.
 

ian13

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HHF ,
I'm a bit confused here but isn't a super off-peak return, Smethwick Galton Bridge to London Terminals, route High Wycombe (full fare £25) Chiltern specific as it is route High Wycombe and no other TOC works that line / route ?
What matters is not the actual operator, but if the ticket says "Chiltern only". If no such operator restriction is listed, it's valid on any operator who operates on a permitted route.
 

LexyBoy

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The term "TOC specific" refers to tickets which have a ticket restriction limiting them to the use of a specific operator (or operators). This is denoted under the "Route:" field on tickets, although it is not a restriction on route (nor can they be excessed as could a ticket restricted by route).

As Indigo2 says, you could use other operators for part, but not all, of the route. Equally, there are plenty of Any Permitted tickets which are valid only on a single operator, where no other TOCs operate services over any of the permitted routes.
 

Smethwickian

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HHF ,
I'm a bit confused here but isn't a super off-peak return, Smethwick Galton Bridge to London Terminals, route High Wycombe (full fare £25) Chiltern specific as it is route High Wycombe and no other TOC works that line / route ?
Route Chiltern Trains only is NOT the same as Route High Wycombe which I specifically stated in my OP.

Route High Wycombe fares for flows between, for example, Birmingham Stations and London Terminals are, as already pointed out, perfectly valid on XC between Birmingham and Banbury, LM from Birmingham to Leamington Spa, VT from Birmingham to Coventry, FGW betwen Banbury and Kings Sutton, etc etc etc.

Route Chiltern Trains Only fares do come up with many booking engines but as far as I can see should only actually be applied to advance singles (or other occasional promotional offers which might be exclusive to that company).
 

island

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HHF ,
I'm a bit confused here but isn't a super off-peak return, Smethwick Galton Bridge to London Terminals, route High Wycombe (full fare £25) Chiltern specific as it is route High Wycombe and no other TOC works that line / route ?
The question is what's printed on the ticket rather than what is logical (and in this case, it's possible to use another operator some of the way).

In any case, you can excess a [TOC] only ticket to an ANY PERMITTED ticket, but it still can only be used on that TOC. An example of this would be if you had an off-peak return from London Terminals to Birmingham Stns route LDN MIDLAND ONLY (let's say you're on the outbound portion and travelling on a weekend for the sake of argument) and wanted to break your journey, which isn't permitted on that ticket. The appropriate excess would be to an ANY PERMITTED off-peak return (£20) rather than to a LDN MIDLAND ONLY anytime return (£38), but the said ANY PERMITTED off-peak return would only be valid on London Midland.

[insert simple bricks]
 

Smethwickian

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ANYWAY, I'm still confused.

Hairyhandedfool says (B), ian13 says (C), while owlman reckons it's down to chance which ticket machine is behind the counter!

The (Top Secret) Manual quoted elsewhere on this forum apparently said at one time or another: "Return tickets - change of route in one direction only: Half the difference between the price already paid and price of the cheapest Return ticket, available for immediate travel that allows the customer to travel on the route and Train Company of their choice." - but I don't know if that is still current or has been amended, because it's dangerous information for us mere passengers to actually have at our fingertips, apparently.

For three people travelling, this could mean the difference between £108 and £141 - no mean sum.

For reasons I won't bother going into, I really would appreciate the flexibility of changing the ticket in one direction, if anyone can give a definitive answer that I can quote to a ticket clerk.
 

hairyhandedfool

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HHF ,
I'm a bit confused here but isn't a super off-peak return, Smethwick Galton Bridge to London Terminals, route High Wycombe (full fare £25) Chiltern specific as it is route High Wycombe and no other TOC works that line / route ?
A TOC specific ticket names a TOC, or TOCs, that you can, or cannot, use in route field on the ticket. This type of restriction must be made clear on the ticket.

The fact that a ticket can only be used on one TOC because of the service level over a route does not make it TOC specific.
 

tony_mac

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This is not a change due to a restricted time - it is a change of route.

Either ticket is valid at the time of intended travel, so the change of type is irrelevant.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=699523&postcount=3

Return tickets - change of route in one direction only

Half the difference between the price already paid and price of the cheapest Return ticket, available for immediate travel that allows the customer to travel on the route and Train Company of their choice.
In the specific case of the OP, what the retailer needs to do is select that it is a change of route excess, that a RETURN ticket is held (not single!) and that you wish to excess the return portion only. Fare paid is entered (£23.30) then the appropriate ticket type is selected, SSR which is £30.35. The system should calculate that half the difference is then payable, that is £3.55 (or £3.50 if rounding down)
 

Smethwickian

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I thank everyone for their contributions to the debate.

However, although the consensus seems to be heading towards 'half the difference' (answer B in my original question), it seems impossible to purchase.

A third station - Sandwell and Dudley - last night gave the answer (C), £22, despite very patiently listening to my careful explanation and even examining a printout of the relevant section of The (Top Secret) Manual quoted elsewhere on this forum (which the ticket clerk said he did not recognise, despite professing to six-and-a-half years in the job). The reason? "The computer says "no".'

Time is running out as I now have no further opportunities to stand in queues and debate at length with ticket clerks before this weekend's intended journey.

I now hereby give up, and acknowledge that the Virgin-fixed £47 is the (in my view, out of proportion in comparison with competitive offerings by Chiltern and LM and indeed scheduled coach operators) price that has to be paid for flexibility, even if that's only for half the trip.

Thanks again for trying, folks.
 
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