Is ticketing facilities out of order, in general, a valid defence to penalty fares elsewhere in the world?

[miklcct]

On my last trip to Helsinki, the only ticket machine at the airport bus station was out of order so I couldn't buy a ticket there before I boarded the 600 bus.

I told the bus driver that I couldn't buy a ticket, he looked at the machine and then waved me on.

I travelled without a ticket. If I met a ticket inspector on the journey, would it be a defence to a penalty fare? Is the answer the same no matter where in the world I am in?

 

[Flying Snail]

No.

There are far too many different operators and procedures across the planet to ever make such a blanket statement like that.

 

[Struner]

The reaction at the other extreme end could well be: you’re fined & so will be driver.
But not in Finland. Finland is the happiest country in the world, they say.
perhaps it’s their αταραξεια.
& no, I haven’t checked in every place in the world.

 

[duesselmartin]

In Germany you should get some evidence of not being able to buy a ticket. Note down the number of the ticket machine. If the conductor hands out a fine, it gets cancelled once the ticket had been checked.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In Switzerland on regional services officially not, if I recall. Rare for all TVMs to be broken though, I only had it once (and was quite nervous about the possibility of an inspection).

 

[dutchflyer]

As I am currently in POland, in the last days of an InterRail, it is also astonishing how much these countries have changed since socialism fell down. For urban transit one (still has to) must buy some ticket before boarding and cancel/validate it immediately. Now in those ´good old´ days such tickets were sold by working persons in tiny kiosks and the validating often was by punching some holes in tickets. But those kiosks would close and then it is up to the customer to fetch-it was very, very common to hold some coins and ask any others for an unused ticket-many bought those in packs of 50 or 100.
Except for the need for some form of pre-sale, there are now many more forms to do: machines, apps, other online things on your fone, or grow older and do not pay anymore-just show ID when checked. (that is from 70 and holds for nearly all, but not 100% of POlish urban systems-and also for you, Brits out of the EU). Which also means you hardly have any excuse for being without.
But in general-there is of course no universal rule, D-Martin points it: you will be fined but have to challenge that with some proof to have that cancelled-the burocracy also wants to have its way. In general buying tickets from machines is far from universal and also it seems on the way out: In SE/Sweden this is very much so.
BTW: at Vantaa lento-asema (air-station): as its a common zonal system, machines on/for the trains etc would issue the same tickets for you. As is also most often the case in Germany or Switzerland

 

[DanielB]

In the Netherlands you'll probably end up with a fine, which will be reimbursed by customer service when the ticket machine is really broken. Always wise to report the defect yourself as well, and to mention it to the ticket inspector so that it will be mentioned on the fine.
On buses the driver will often let you board without paying.

 

[AdamWW]

In the Netherlands you'll probably end up with a fine, which will be reimbursed by customer service when the ticket machine is really broken. Always wise to report the defect yourself as well, and to mention it to the ticket inspector so that it will be mentioned on the fine.
On buses the driver will often let you board without paying.

Yes I think in the Netherlands it's very strict. Automatic fine no matter what the excuse, which you can then try to claim back if there was a good reason you didn't have a ticket.

I'm not sure how easy it is to get a refund if you don't live in the country though.

 

[miklcct]

BTW: at Vantaa lento-asema (air-station): as its a common zonal system, machines on/for the trains etc would issue the same tickets for you. As is also most often the case in Germany or Switzerland

I also visited the train station as well and all full-range ticket machines were out of order at the same time. The only working machine was a limited-range one which only sells single and 1-day ticket with immediate validity, while I wanted a 2-day ticket at that point.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes I think in the Netherlands it's very strict. Automatic fine no matter what the excuse, which you can then try to claim back if there was a good reason you didn't have a ticket.

I'm not sure how easy it is to get a refund if you don't live in the country though.

Anecdotally I have heard of Dutch guards who give the option of alighting at the next station and buying a ticket, though, so there is some scope for discretion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

In Germany you should get some evidence of not being able to buy a ticket. Note down the number of the ticket machine. If the conductor hands out a fine, it gets cancelled once the ticket had been checked.

It's often said that Metrolink used to have a policy that if all TVMs at a stop were broken you had to phone customer services for a reference number, which allowed a totally free journey. This also meant the issue would be reported quickly rather than ignored. I don't know when this stopped, but I don't think it's the current policy.

 

[AdamWW]

Anecdotally I have heard of Dutch guards who give the option of alighting at the next station and buying a ticket, though, so there is some scope for discretion.

Perhaps not officially sanctioned discretion though.
I don't suppose it's much of an issue now anyway give than most people will presumably be paying with a contactless card of one sort or another.

It's often said that Metrolink used to have a policy that if all TVMs at a stop were broken you had to phone customer services for a reference number, which allowed a totally free journey. This also meant the issue would be reported quickly rather than ignored. I don't know when this stopped, but I don't think it's the current policy.

It did occur to me today that in the case of an intermittently misbaving ticket machine, reporting it to the TOC on Twitter would provide some evidence in your defence in the event of being accused of fare evasion. Sure you could do that if the machine was working and then jump on a train, but you couldn't reasonably do that every time you travelled so it's less likely that you are a habitual fare evader and have got away with it up to now.

 

[duesselmartin]

Anecdotally I have heard of Dutch guards who give the option of alighting at the next station and buying a ticket, though, so there is some scope for discretion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

Does that still work with ticket barriers? You might board at a small stopand alight at a larger with barriers.

 

[AdamWW]

Does that still work with ticket barriers? You might board at a small stopand alight at a larger with barriers.

I would imagine the guards know which stations are barriered...

 

[rvdborgt]

Does that still work with ticket barriers? You might board at a small stopand alight at a larger with barriers.

Then you press the "Info" button next to the gates, you say you have an international ticket but the gate doesn't like it. Gate will be opened remotely no questions asked.

 

[AdamWW]

Then you press the "Info" button next to the gates, you say you have an international ticket but the gate doesn't like it. Gate will be opened remotely no questions asked.

I hope that's not the advice that guards are giving out!

 

[DanielB]

Does that still work with ticket barriers? You might board at a small stopand alight at a larger with barriers.

No, within barriers it's only possible to top up a chipcard but not possible to buy a ticket. Though technically one would be able to purchase an e-ticket.

 

[Re 4/4]

It did occur to me today that in the case of an intermittently misbaving ticket machine, reporting it to the TOC on Twitter would provide some evidence in your defence in the event of being accused of fare evasion.

So now you need not just a smartphone but also a twitter account to avoid being unfairly penalised if the TVM is out?

 

[AdamWW]

So now you need not just a smartphone but also a twitter account to avoid being unfairly penalised if the TVM is out?

Please don't confuse my views on how things are for how they should be.
I do not think that people should have to do this. I do not think they should even have to take photos of a failed ticket machine.

I do not think that passengers should be discriminated against in any way for not having a functioning smartphone on them let alone not using Twitter.

But many people are able and willing to post on Twitter and they might find their lives easier if they did what I suggested.

I have no power to persuade the railway companies to stop claiming a machine must have been usable just because it hasn't reported itself as faulty, or even just because other people have successfully used it.

I can suggest something that in an ideal world wouldn't be necessary but in the world we live in might help.