Island Line half hourly timetable start date?

[Bletchleyite]

(iii) Others on this group have mentioned the slow speed of the single leaf door leaves. I think one way to improve this situation is to replace the pneumatic actuators with an electric actuator, that could be designed as a straight replacement for the existing actuators. Please note it is not reasonably practicable to replace the existing single door leaf with a bi-parting door arrangement. There are no door pockets for the door leaves on the D78 vehicles available in the main window bays above the bogies. To introduce one would require a very extensive rebuilding of the body shell, that would be very very expensive!!!!

You could fit plug doors. But as you say changing the actuator would help - or just put them back the way they were on the Tube! Vivarail seem to have fitted a slowing device and removed the "catching" device - just put them both back. They weren't excessively slow on LU, nor did they slam horribly like now.

I agree they should go for driver release or even full DOO (with guards still mandatory, they are needed for revenue anyway). Full DOO would save maybe 20 seconds per stop which adds up.

 

[Deafdoggie]

How often are the trains late? Personal experience and anecdotal evidence suggests they trundle down the pier bang on time when the ferry is late!

 

[Bletchleyite]

How often are the trains late? Personal experience and anecdotal evidence suggests they trundle down the pier bang on time when the ferry is late!

It's more about being able to run a full half hourly service rather than only an hourly one on the pier. Or about, if it stayed hourly, being able to wait for the ferry. Or at least getting the second one back to Esplanade so you can walk down the pier and catch it if you miss the main one - St John's (where some seem to turn) is just a bit useless.

 

[Philip 34002]

You could fit plug doors. But as you say changing the actuator would help - or just put them back the way they were on the Tube! Vivarail seem to have fitted a slowing device and removed the "catching" device - just put them both back. They weren't excessively slow on LU, nor did they slam horribly like now.

I agree they should go for driver release or even full DOO (with guards still mandatory, they are needed for revenue anyway).

Installing plug doors is not a reasonable practicable idea, and would require a very extensive rebuilding of the doorway area. Not something to be recommended on an existing vehicle design that was not designed to accept a plug door arrangement in the first place. It would also introduce additional unreliability into the door system, due to the increased complexity of the door mechanism that would be required with a plug door arrangement.

One correction in my previous note - the non existent door pockets (required for a bi-parting door arrangement) are located in the centre window bay and the end window bays, not the window bays located above the bogies that I stated in my previous note

 

[Gloster]

It's more about being able to run a full half hourly service rather than only an hourly one on the pier. Or about, if it stayed hourly, being able to wait for the ferry. Or at least getting the second one back to Esplanade so you can walk down the pier and catch it if you miss the main one - St John's (where some seem to turn) is just a bit useless.

The St John’s Road starters and terminators are, I think, only those at the beginning and end of the second train’s diagrams (when it runs). The Saturday turnarounds at Esplanade only leave a FastCat unmet for two months in summer: not so much of a problem for locals, but a wonderful way of giving tourists happy memories.

Today is one of the biggest days of arrivals on the island due to the Festival, but despite that the 12.15 Shanklin, which I saw running along the pier, was only a single set. Most festival-goers will walk along the pier, but with a capacity of 260 on the Cats, they are chancing it.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The Saturday turnarounds at Esplanade only leave a FastCat unmet for two months in summer: not so much of a problem for locals, but a wonderful way of giving tourists happy memories.

But they currently all don't meet the ferry as they leave on time and the ferry arrives late! Most people, when we went, walked down the pier and got a bus instead.

 

[Gloster]

But they currently all don't meet the ferry as they leave on time and the ferry arrives late! Most people, when we went, walked down the pier and got a bus instead.

Observation is that it is usually the other way round: the train doesn’t get to the Pier Head until after the ferry has left. Bear in mind that if you are going off the island you are stuck for one, possibly two, hours with no alternative. If you are coming to the island you do have the option of walking along the pier to the Esplanade. Most of my posts are seen from the angle of people who live on the island and need to get to Portsmouth for work or other reasons.

 

[hermit]

Observation is that it is usually the other way round: the train doesn’t get to the Pier Head until after the ferry has left. Bear in mind that if you are going off the island you are stuck for one, possibly two, hours with no alternative. If you are coming to the island you do have the option of walking along the pier to the Esplanade. Most of my posts are seen from the angle of people who live on the island and need to get to Portsmouth for work or other reasons.

Not my experience at all. Since the new service started last November I have used it to get to Pier Head about 15 times. It has always been on time or nearly, and I have never missed the ferry.

Where I have experienced problems it is because the ferry has run late, causing missed connections at Portsmouth, or, coming home, missing the train at Pier Head.

 

[Gloster]

Not my experience at all. Since the new service started last November I have used it to get to Pier Head about 15 times. It has always been on time or nearly, and I have never missed the ferry.

Where I have experienced problems it is because the ferry has run late, causing missed connections at Portsmouth, or, coming home, missing the train at Pier Head.

I haven’t used the FastCat for several years, so my observations are based on what I see when walking down Union Street in Ryde at lunchtime or in the early afternoon. But I have definitely seen the Cat moving away while the train is late and on the pier.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Observation is that it is usually the other way round: the train doesn’t get to the Pier Head until after the ferry has left. Bear in mind that if you are going off the island you are stuck for one, possibly two, hours with no alternative. If you are coming to the island you do have the option of walking along the pier to the Esplanade. Most of my posts are seen from the angle of people who live on the island and need to get to Portsmouth for work or other reasons.

I'm in tourist mode! As we missed the train at pier head we, like everyone else on our ferry, walked down the pier and got on buses not bothering with trains again whilst we were there. So no idea what leaving the island is like we were in full bus mode by then.

 

[david1212]

Yesterday I was watching the webcam. At 13:45 the train was at the pier head but no sign of the Fastcat. The train departed on time. The Fastcat then came into view but by the time docked the train would have left St Johns. The 13:30 from Southsea hovercraft was late too so anyone hoping to catch the train at the Esplanade missed it. Of course neither the fault of Island line. However with an hour until the next train to/from the Esplanade and two hours to the Pier Head I suspect most passengers would seek an alternative rather than waiting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yesterday I was watching the webcam. At 13:45 the train was at the pier head but no sign of the Fastcat. The train departed on time. The Fastcat then came into view but by the time docked the train would have left St Johns. The 13:30 from Southsea hovercraft was late too so anyone hoping to catch the train at the Esplanade missed it. Of course neither the fault of Island line. However with an hour until the next train to/from the Esplanade and two hours to the Pier Head I suspect most passengers would seek an alternative rather than waiting.

If anything the bigger problem isn't the hourly train to the Pier being missed, because people wouldn't want to stand around for half an hour when walking to Esplanade takes 10 minutes, usefully using up some of the wait. However, the trains turning at St John's which happens at certain times of day is a problem. I guess you encountered that? They really need to find a way to avoid that.

I can't see any timetabled 2 hour gaps looking at today's timetable. There do seem to be some in the weekday timetable. If the Saturday timetable doesn't leave 2 hour gaps, why does the weekday one? And why can the second train not run all day? Pretty sure it did when it was the 20-40 timetable.

 

[Starmill]

They don't really have enough crew to run one train per hour, let alone three. Trying to expand the timetable would simply result in more services being cancelled. Organising cover for extras, even just for one weekend, is also a losing battle on a fixed budget.

And all for what? Why would you spend more money on it anyway? The bus service is more frequent and just as quick. The buses also run directly to Ventnor and Newport, which trains cannot. Arguably it would be rather better to spend the money on more bus services.

 

[Deafdoggie]

They don't really have enough crew to run one train per hour, let alone three. Trying to expand the timetable would simply result in more services being cancelled. Organising cover for extras, even just for one weekend, is also a losing battle on a fixed budget.

And all for what? Why would you spend more money on it anyway? The bus service is more frequent and just as quick. The buses also run directly to Ventnor and Newport, which trains cannot. Arguably it would be rather better to spend the money on more bus services.

My feeling entirely. Having been there and spoken to the locals the line is a basket case and serves no real purpose.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My feeling entirely. Having been there and spoken to the locals the line is a basket case and serves no real purpose.

Then close it. But if it is open the service needs to be useful.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Then close it. But if it is open the service needs to be useful.

Alas, they don't seem able to do the latter.

 

[Gloster]

It will interesting (or possibly depressing) to see what passenger numbers are like this summer, particularly on Saturdays. The one I saw heading up the pier yesterday had probably less than twenty onboard.

 

[david1212]

They don't really have enough crew to run one train per hour, let alone three. Trying to expand the timetable would simply result in more services being cancelled. Organising cover for extras, even just for one weekend, is also a losing battle on a fixed budget.

How is this? The previous timetable was supposed to be two trains per hour hence two crews on duty and however many crews needed to cover the weekly roster employed. The core issue in the end I thought was having two serviceable trains never mind three to rotate for maintenance not staffing.

And all for what? Why would you spend more money on it anyway? The bus service is more frequent and just as quick. The buses also run directly to Ventnor and Newport, which trains cannot. Arguably it would be rather better to spend the money on more bus services.

Then close it. But if it is open the service needs to be useful.

It will interesting (or possibly depressing) to see what passenger numbers are like this summer, particularly on Saturdays. The one I saw heading up the pier yesterday had probably less than twenty onboard.

The stark reality is times have changed since 1967 when six 7-car trains were planned on peak Saturdays. While the line will never break even never mind make a profit the subsidy has to be justified for the number of journeys not just peak season but all year. Sad to say but if things do not change I would support closure. For the pier section and maybe to St Johns have a tramway. At least then the service can meet delayed ferries and be a shuttle if passengers numbers require this.

One traditional reason for the railway was because road journeys became so long due to the volume of traffic. I guess the traffic queues are still the same but without a reliable 30 minute 4-car service the line can not now make much of an impact on this.

 

[hermit]

They don't really have enough crew to run one train per hour, let alone three. Trying to expand the timetable would simply result in more services being cancelled. Organising cover for extras, even just for one weekend, is also a losing battle on a fixed budget.

And all for what? Why would you spend more money on it anyway? The bus service is more frequent and just as quick. The buses also run directly to Ventnor and Newport, which trains cannot. Arguably it would be rather better to spend the money on more bus services.

If people are going to argue for closure, it would be better to do it on the basis of facts. The bus service is NOT ‘just as quick‘. Shanklin to Ryde Esplanade by bus is typically about 52 minutes. The train does it in 23 minutes, and then takes you up the pier (At least some of the time!)

 

[RedPostJunc]

Observation is that it is usually the other way round: the train doesn’t get to the Pier Head until after the ferry has left. Bear in mind that if you are going off the island you are stuck for one, possibly two, hours with no alternative. If you are coming to the island you do have the option of walking along the pier to the Esplanade. Most of my posts are seen from the angle of people who live on the island and need to get to Portsmouth for work or other reasons.

With a 26 minute journey time and 4 minute turn round, in both directions, it's almost inevitable that if you hold the train at Ryde for a late running ferry, the return journey from Shanklin will arrive after the ferry it should connect with has left. Some train operators address this kind of problem by terminating the train short (reverse at Sandown instead of Shanklin, for example).

When GWR ran its Reading - Basingstoke service (which used to have similar journey and turn round times) with two units, whenever a train was delayed, the impact often lasted for hours. They now use three units to operate a two train per hour service, with much longer turn round times. If a train in one direction runs late, the return has a much better chance of running on time.

I don't know whether such a solution would be technically feasible (with the current position of passing loops etc.), financially it is probably impossible.

 

[Kite159]

When GWR ran its Reading - Basingstoke service (which used to have similar journey and turn round times) with two units, whenever a train was delayed, the impact often lasted for hours. They now use three units to operate a two train per hour service, with much longer turn round times. If a train in one direction runs late, the return has a much better chance of running on time.

Just have a look on a Sunday for Reading - Basingstoke services, one unit going back and forth with reasonably tight turnarounds at either end.

A delay during the day can easily last most of the day, I think if it gets so bad they will either cancel one round trip or run it fast.

 

[hermit]

The disfunctionality of the present arrangements was on display yesterday. I was at Esplanade to see the train go up the pier (on time, as in my experience it always is) to meet the 1015 catamaran from Portsmouth. So far so good. A few minutes later, it came back down the pier, again dead on time, with, as far as I could see, no passengers on board, having left Pierhead just as the catamaran was arriving. The arriving passengers were left to walk down the pier, no doubt grateful that it was at least good weather. Anyone unable to do so, or unwilling to fork out for a taxi (assuming one could be found) would be faced with a 2 hour wait at Pierhead for the next train.

This was not a busy time, when the press of passengers might have given some excuse for the catamaran being delayed, but a quiet Thursday morning when the passengers were relatively few.

As it happened, this was an occasion when holding the train for a few minutes would probably not have caused later problems, since with one train in service there was no passing at Brading to worry about, and the return journey from Shanklin did not have a ferry to catch. But I accept that in general the tightness of the timetable means that it’s not practicable to wait for late-running ferries.

It’s intensely frustrating that the vast expenditure on modernising the line has led to a situation in which connectivity is even worse than it was before; and that the lack of joined-up authority means that no one takes responsibility for tackling the problem, or even for monitoring what is going on.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The disfunctionality of the present arrangements was on display yesterday. I was at Esplanade to see the train go up the pier (on time, as in my experience it always is) to meet the 1015 catamaran from Portsmouth. So far so good. A few minutes later, it came back down the pier, again dead on time, with, as far as I could see, no passengers on board, having left Pierhead just as the catamaran was arriving. The arriving passengers were left to walk down the pier, no doubt grateful that it was at least good weather. Anyone unable to do so, or unwilling to fork out for a taxi (assuming one could be found) would be faced with a 2 hour wait at Pierhead for the next train.

This was not a busy time, when the press of passengers might have given some excuse for the catamaran being delayed, but a quiet Thursday morning when the passengers were relatively few.

As it happened, this was an occasion when holding the train for a few minutes would probably not have caused later problems, since with one train in service there was no passing at Brading to worry about, and the return journey from Shanklin did not have a ferry to catch. But I accept that in general the tightness of the timetable means that it’s not practicable to wait for late-running ferries.

It’s intensely frustrating that the vast expenditure on modernising the line has led to a situation in which connectivity is even worse than it was before; and that the lack of joined-up authority means that no one takes responsibility for tackling the problem, or even for monitoring what is going on.

That happens with every train every day. It's a total waste of time and money. As you say, at the moment seems bothered, but I guess eventually someone will realise noone is using it and it will shut.

 

[trebor79]

I wonder if a 3 train service operating a 20 minute "turn up and go" style service might be better during peak periods? Then you could hold a train for a fee minutes to meet the ferry rather than departing just as a slightly late ferry is docking?
But if there isn't the resource to run even the 2 train service reliably, that isn't going to happen.

I do wonder if shutting it and handing it over to the heritage railway and/or some community run group might be better overall than the current vastly expensive pretence of running a "proper" train service? If the third rail was de-energised there shouldn't be any issue with heritage operations, and that might actually help bring more tourists etc to the island and be better for the island economy overall than a fairly limited train service over 8 miles of track?
I visited Sandown by air earlier in the year. Lovely beach but sad to say much of the rest of the place was an absolute unmitigated depressing dump. Burnt out hotels, decaying shop fronts etc. Sad to see. I wonder if the money spent on Island Line might be better spent on other things (accept it's not that sample, different budgets etc). And an expanded heritage rail operation can only help bring more tourists and money to the area - probably more than the fairly limited "proper" rail service does at present.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if a 3 train service operating a 20 minute "turn up and go" style service might be better during peak periods? Then you could hold a train for a fee minutes to meet the ferry rather than departing just as a slightly late ferry is docking?
But if there isn't the resource to run even the 2 train service reliably, that isn't going to happen.

While it'd slow down the service for regulars, I think the best bet would be to do any work necessary to get the service up to a full 2tph up the pier, then to have the timetable offset 15 minutes from the ferries. It would probably reduce usage just for going down the pier (as it'd be quicker to walk), but most such passengers probably don't pay anyway, but would mean a better quality, less stressful connection for those using it to go further, especally with luggage.

Having now used it, there are definitely ways it could be sped up. Driver door operation would be one, as would modifying the doors to operate more quickly (I don't entirely understand why, but the conversion has resulted in them being slower than they were on the D78s as built). Making all stations except Brading and the termini request stops may also be useful, you could fit bus-style stop buttons on board. I doubt you'd need to eke much out to make half hourly feasible, which is what the idea was in the first place.

Alternatively just go back to the 20-40 operation, with the 20 gap timed to be either side of the main hourly ferry arrival (i.e. train arrives around xx50, ferry at xx00, train departs around xx10). This would mean a poor connection in the other half hour, but it's rarely actually half hourly these days.

 

[trebor79]

While it'd slow down the service for regulars, I think the best bet would be to do any work necessary to get the service up to a full 2tph up the pier, then to have the timetable offset 15 minutes from the ferries. It would probably reduce usage just for going down the pier (as it'd be quicker to walk), but most such passengers probably don't pay anyway, but would mean a better quality, less stressful connection for those using it to go further, especally with luggage.

Having now used it, there are definitely ways it could be sped up. Driver door operation would be one, as would modifying the doors to operate more quickly (I don't entirely understand why, but the conversion has resulted in them being slower than they were on the D78s as built). Making all stations except Brading and the termini request stops may also be useful, you could fit bus-style stop buttons on board. I doubt you'd need to eke much out to make half hourly feasible, which is what the idea was in the first place.

Alternatively just go back to the 20-40 operation, with the 20 gap timed to be either side of the main hourly ferry arrival (i.e. train arrives around xx50, ferry at xx00, train departs around xx10). This would mean a poor connection in the other half hour, but it's rarely actually half hourly these days.

Yes I agree these seem like sensible (and low cost/easy to implement) ideas. One wonders why such obvious ideas haven't occurred to the management already.

 

[Gloster]

Yes I agree these seem like sensible (and low cost/easy to implement) ideas. One wonders why such obvious ideas haven't occurred to the management already.

Because, as I have said before, there is no single brain overseeing the whole shambles. Instead, you have a number of different interests who are solely interested in hitting their targets, rather than one balancing up the various considerations.

The idea of the Steam Railway taking over the line has been put up before, but they have made clear that the most they would consider is extending to St John’s Road.

 

[DelW]

Isn't the current problem with late arriving ferries a temporary one caused by the rebuilding of the Wightlink terminal at Portsmouth?

In normal times a U-shaped queue forms in the terminal building, with Wightlink staff checking tickets along the queue while the boat is arriving. Once the ferry is ready, the queue boards quickly, as it's a short walk and ticket checks have been done.

However, when I travelled a few weeks ago, the closure of the terminal meant that the queue formed across the end of the Harbour station and along the side of platform 1. When the ferry was ready, the queue boarded much more slowly, having to walk along the platform and up and down temporary scaffold staircases, then get tickets checked at the gangway.

Assuming that this work is still taking place, the situation may improve once the terminal reopens?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Isn't the current problem with late arriving ferries a temporary one caused by the rebuilding of the Wightlink terminal at Portsmouth?

In normal times a U-shaped queue forms in the terminal building, with Wightlink staff checking tickets along the queue while the boat is arriving. Once the ferry is ready, the queue boards quickly, as it's a short walk and ticket checks have been done.

However, when I travelled a few weeks ago, the closure of the terminal meant that the queue formed across the end of the Harbour station and along the side of platform 1. When the ferry was ready, the queue boarded much more slowly, having to walk along the platform and up and down temporary scaffold staircases, then get tickets checked at the gangway.

Assuming that this work is still taking place, the situation may improve once the terminal reopens?

When we went they checked tickets in the queue at Harbour Station whist waiting for everyone to get off. The ferry was late in and so late out. None had connected with the trains all day. Everyone is giving up on the trains, understandably, about which the taxi drivers are very happy!

 

[hermit]

Isn't the current problem with late arriving ferries a temporary one caused by the rebuilding of the Wightlink terminal at Portsmouth?

In normal times a U-shaped queue forms in the terminal building, with Wightlink staff checking tickets along the queue while the boat is arriving. Once the ferry is ready, the queue boards quickly, as it's a short walk and ticket checks have been done.

However, when I travelled a few weeks ago, the closure of the terminal meant that the queue formed across the end of the Harbour station and along the side of platform 1. When the ferry was ready, the queue boarded much more slowly, having to walk along the platform and up and down temporary scaffold staircases, then get tickets checked at the gangway.

Assuming that this work is still taking place, the situation may improve once the terminal reopens?

The rebuilding work (which shows no sign of being completed any time soon) has certainly made a bad situation seriously worse, but even when catamaran services are running normally the connection is too tight for comfort. A connection time that is shorter than before, together with the serious time penalty involved in missing the connection with an hourly (or sometimes two-hourly) train service makes the link increasingly unattractive.

The fact that usage of the ‘Park and Ride’ carpark at St Johns has fallen off a cliff suggests that many regular travellers have concluded that it is too unreliable and have found other ways of getting across the Solent (or not travelled).