Isle of Man Heritage Railways lose £3.5m in 2024

[Egg Centric]

If you were going to run a year round MER service I think you'd need bimodes - they currently take the wires down annually as winter would destroy them otherwise.

Can't see it happening though. It would haemorrhage money and that 22% income tax and 0% capital gains ain't gonna cover it!

 

[Western 52]

An issue with running modern trams on the MER would be speed - about 20mph I think. So many curves modern trams probably wouldn't go much faster. Also lots of road crossings.

 

[Skymonster]

wouldn't it be better to modernise the MER with new tramcars to provide a decent all year round service and drive patronage?

If i counted correctly, there are 44 stops on the MER between Douglas and Ramsey. No doubt if modernisation was on the agenda, all those stops would have to be modified to meet current PRM rules (like they had to do in Blackpool). Add on that the line speed restrictions (sharp curves, unprotected crossings, etc.) means a tram takes somewhat longer to run between Douglas and Ramsey than does the bus service - one and a half hours versus 45-60 minutes. So add a heck of a lot more money to upgrade the line and overhead infrastructure. Realistically Bus Vannin provides a good service along the north east coast of the island, leaving the MER and Snaefell to accommodate visitors - numbers of which can be substantial when a cruise ship is in Douglas Bay.

Controversial with some I guess, but should the island's railways be operated more as UK preserved lines, with a greater role for volunteers?

At busy times the MER operates every 30 minutes, with a 18.5 miles each way round trip to Ramsey taking about three hours. First tram departs soon after nine in the morning and in the peak they run until early evening, on some occasions much later. Each tram needs at least two crew (more in some cases when there’s running until 22:00 due duty time limitations), then there’s station managers at Douglas, Laxey and Ramsey, and ticket office staff, etc. SMR has three cars out in the peak, two staff per vehicle plus staff at Bungalow and Summit.

Work out how many staff are needed to run reliable a service on that scale - a service that it is important be operated to manage the expectation of visitors (not least the multitude of cruise ship passengers who pay a lot more than casual visitors for land excursions that include a ride on the heritage tram and the mountain railway). I doubt it could be done with volunteers, because I suspect there would not be enough of them to run the current service.

 

[Egg Centric]

No doubt if modernisation was on the agenda, all those stops would have to be modified to meet current PRM rules (like they had to do in Blackpool).

While I agree it's a no goer, one of the major advantages of being a micro state is you don't have to do that sort of thing, instead they could take a common sense approach of making the stops people would use accessible for example (or maybe low floor trams).

(And aiui there's technically an infinite number of stops - they will stop anywhere "safe")

 

[Belperpete]

The IoM vintage transport system brings in so many visitors wh spend on meals and accommodation, that it would be silly to piffly wiffle about closing bits of it.

Agreed that the vintage transport system does bring in a lot of visitors. The steam railway can get very packed, and likewise the Snaefell trams. But the electric trams empty out when they get to Laxey. The last time that I was over there, for a transport festival week when you would think there would be plenty of enthusiasts about, the trams beyond Laxey rarely had more than half a dozen passengers on. Everyone got out at Laxey, with most making a beeline for the Snaefell car. Much as I too like the northern section, being realistic there is surely going to come a time when the Manx government stops subsiding near-empty trams.

There is no point in buying modern trams, as they are never going to compete with the buses for local traffic. The buses are just so much faster. To get equivalent speeds, the line would have to be so heavily re-engineered and re-aligned that it would lose all its heritage appeal.

The horse trams have also lost any pretence of being a mode of transport, now that they only go half way along the prom, and with such a low frequency that it is invariably quicker to walk. You have to be quite determined to ride on one, to sit it out while umpteen buses go past.

I have been going to the Isle of Mann for a long time, and have seen the steady and remorseless decline in the tourist trade. It is now but a pale ghost of what it once was. I doubt that there are much more than a dozen hotels left on the island now. Douglas is totally dead of an evening, let alone the smaller towns. They are making an effort to attract the cruise ships, but realistically speaking how many of them are going to be calling in each week? Cruise ships are only ever going to be the cherry on the cake, you still need some cake.

The comparison with somewhere like Llandudno is stark. Forty years ago if you went to Llandudno in November, the place was dead. Now it is buzzing. Most UK resorts long ago realised that they can't survive on a six week high season alone, they need to be attracting tourists all year round. Whereas Douglas doesn't seem to want tourists after 6pm even in high summer.

 

[DarloRich]

Douglas is totally dead of an evening, let alone the smaller towns. They are making an effort to attract the cruise ships, but realistically speaking how many of them are going to be calling in each week? Cruise ships are only ever going to be the cherry on the cake, you still need some cake.

I am not sure I agree. Perhaps how people undertake and enjoy thier leave has changed. The ferry always seems rammed whenever i travel to IoM and locals say the flights are busy.

We don't stay in Douglas though so i will bow to your knowledge

 

[Bletchleyite]

If beyond Laxey is really quiet, could that be operated as a volunteer-led preserved line on the UK style model, but the rest of it as what it is now? Would that bring much saving?

 

[godfreycomplex]

Would that bring much saving?

Nope

I am not sure I agree.

Neither do I, I’m afraid

 

[John Luxton]

I have been going to the Isle of Mann for a long time, and have seen the steady and remorseless decline in the tourist trade. It is now but a pale ghost of what it once was. I doubt that there are much more than a dozen hotels left on the island now. Douglas is totally dead of an evening, let alone the smaller towns. They are making an effort to attract the cruise ships, but realistically speaking how many of them are going to be calling in each week? Cruise ships are only ever going to be the cherry on the cake, you still need some cake.

The hotel situation is making a rapid turn around. The owners of the Mannin have plans for the Royalty House near the Sea Terminal, currently offices to be turned into a Spa Hotel, the same company is also planning to demolsh the Salvation Army Building and replace it with another hotel. Furthermore just last week a new hotel operated by Travelodge has been announced for the Villier's Hotel site which has lain mainly empty since 1996.

I think you are being premature writing off the hotel business on the Isle of Man as serious investment is underway. People are not going to put up that sort of money if they don't envisage some return. This summer I tried to make a fairly last minute hotel booking for a Round the Island Cruise and there was not much availability. I did get a place in the end first at the Premier Inn which was charging a rediculous sum for a room only one night stay, Fortunately closer to the date I found my current usual watering hole the Mannin Hotel had a room available (which hadn't been the case when I tried to book initially) at a much better rate (they don't do fluid pricing) and included breakfast and I was able to cancel the Premier Inn. If Premier Inn can charge nearly £200 for a one night stay in summer based on their fluid rates I would say there was a serious shortage of hotel rooms.

 

[Belperpete]

I am not sure I agree. Perhaps how people undertake and enjoy thier leave has changed. The ferry always seems rammed whenever i travel to IoM and locals say the flights are busy.

We don't stay in Douglas though so i will bow to your knowledge

Agreed that the flights are busy, but then the planes are tiny. There are now only a couple of ferry crossings each day. I don't know what it is like on the ferries, but on the flights, a significant proportion of the passengers seem to be locals, who all know one another, rather than tourists.

Agreed that a lot more people are taking cruise holidays these days. But how many cruise ships are there calling in each week? During the week I was there, only one. No business is going to survive on the occasional busy day if there are too many loss-making quiet days in between.

It is obvious that those few pubs and restaurants that have survived have orientated themselves toward local trade, with tourist trade just a bonus. Which is why almost all now close of an evening, when the locals all go home.

It would be good if the tourist business really were coming back from its nadir. But the reality is that these proposed new hotels will need to be profitable year round, not just for 6 weeks a year, if they are to survive. Which means that there must be something to keep tourists entertained, and fed and watered, on a stormy Sunday in December. Currently, there is precious little available on a Sunday in July!

 

[John Luxton]

It would be good if the tourist business really were coming back from its nadir. But the reality is that these proposed new hotels will need to be profitable year round, not just for 6 weeks a year, if they are to survive. Which means that there must be something to keep tourists entertained, and fed and watered, on a stormy Sunday in December. Currently, there is precious little available on a Sunday in July!

I am sure this investment would not be taking place without demand for it. The island hosts events and conferences and there are quite a lot of tourists who go all year round. I know I am one of them. Though I have lived on Merseyside all my life, I didn't get round to visiting the Isle of Man until I was 34 in 1994 despite it being so close. Since then I have never kept away and have visited in all seasons and at all times of year. It is a place that now appeals to those who find Snowdonia, Lake District and Dartmoor attractive destinations. They don't need the old "Blackpool" style entertainment - they make their own walking, exploring etc or visiting the heritage attractions and railways. The traditional bucket and spade holiday on the island died before I ever started visiting.

I have only ever flown to the island twice I tend to want to go to Douglas and I enjoy sailing on ships (second passion to railways) thus its sea all the time for me and I find airports a pain with all the security. By sea its less strict so not everyone gets a once over just a random sample.

As you have found out with the planes on the ships many of the passengers are IoM residents. I go so often I have been a member of the Steam Packet Executive Travel Club since 1998 and obviously most members in the on board lounge tend to be Manxies though there are one or two or us Merseysiders regulars and I know of one other ship enthusiast who has been a member for almost as long as I have.

There are up to four return crossings per day from just before Easter to Early September. Usually two to Heysham and two to Liverpool except on some days there is only one to LIverpool and the other one operates to either Belfast or Dublin. Incidentally the Isle of Man Steam Packet published its annual report and accounts for the financial year to December 2023 yesterday and it revealed an £8m profit so there is a fair bit of passengers and freight moving to and fro.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Agreed that the flights are busy, but then the planes are tiny.

Depends which ones you mean - EasyJet run reasonably large A319s over frequently from London/Liverpool/Manchester.

 

[Belfastmarty]

One of the joys of the Manx railways is the use of largely original rolling stock on their original lines, day-in day-out, at least during the summer season. I agree that the disabled provision is not what it should be, but I suppose the challenge is how to better provide for that whilst retaining the essential character of the lines and stock. I have often wondered if it would be possible to provide trailers with a dropped centre section allowing step free access, in the manner that you sometimes see high floor trams with a low floor centre section in some European cities. Of course this is still problematic on the MER/SMR side with the lack of platforms. Certainly I wouldn't ever like to get to a situation with modern trains/trams operating the service and the heritage stock relegated to infrequent use.