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Israel apparntly has Jaricho II's aimed at Europe

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GWRtom

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i was reading this artticle link here(http://www.rense.com/general34/esde.htm)
about how Israel has Missiles and Dolphin submarines capable of Launching Nuclear missiles at Europe and apaprntly America and yet they do not allow insepctions of there nuclear facilities i mean if what the hell Iran allow us to be not Israel this is just stupid....
sorry for my bad English
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
also even if it aint real that is justification for a NATO pre-emptive(sp) strike
 
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Aictos

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Seems like a right wing loony, I'm a firm supporter of Israel but this doesn't do anything to help the current troubles.

Sometimes it just makes you want to knock the respective President's heads together!
 

GWRtom

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Seems like a right wing loony, I'm a firm supporter of Israel but this doesn't do anything to help the current troubles.

Sometimes it just makes you want to knock the respective President's heads together!

researth the Samson option it is a real threat
but one that would not work
 

ainsworth74

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The guy is litterally certifiable. 1st: Israel is a westernised democracy and has a 'sane' government. 'Sane' states do not use nuclear weapons against other nuclear weapon states (like the UK or those under NATO's nuclear umbrella) because to do so would mean your own destruction. Isreal could avenge the holocaust but would simply end itself in the process. 2nd: His claim that Israel could take down the world with it is simple chest thumping. There are only two states that possess sufficent weapons to end the world single handedly those being Russia and the US. Also in all honesty I'm not convinced that Israel's nuclear weapons are all that credible anyway. They have never tested their weapons in the field and testing is critical in the development of these weapons. All other states that possess them have conducted extensive testing programmes, in Israel's shoes I wouldn't be going around shouting about how wonderful my weapons are if I don't honestly know there going to work as intended.

In a word the guy is nuts.
 

CarterUSM

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Am I right in thinking israel has always maintained a silence on even owning nuclear weapons never mind testing them?
 

GWRtom

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I don't think I need to point out the idiocy of that post do I?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Or that one?
have you even researched the samson option? or the crimes commited by Israel
considering there pretty much black mailing the US to attack iran
 

bnm

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Blackmailing the US? How exactly do you blackmail a country?
 

yorkie

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We allow Israel to get away with things that we simply wouldn't let other countries get away with. The whole Israel thing sickens me. It's basically because there are powerful Jewish Americans who ensure the US is biased toward Israel and let them get away with pretty much anything, including constantly breaking international laws.
 

ainsworth74

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have you even researched the samson option?

Yes I now have. To me it looks exactly the same as everyother nuclear nations fallback policy that being if another nation uses nuclear weapons against them or threatens to overrun them with conventional forces, then Israel will use its nukes to prevent or deter that from occuring. Essentally it seems to me to be another way of saying "we follow the doctrine of MAD".
 

thefab444

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We allow Israel to get away with things that we simply wouldn't let other countries get away with. The whole Israel thing sickens me. It's basically because there are powerful Jewish Americans who ensure the US is biased toward Israel and let them get away with pretty much anything, including constantly breaking international laws.

For possibly only the second time in history, I agree with Yorkie.
 

asylumxl

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For possibly only the second time in history, I agree with Yorkie.

I couldn't agree more. Isreal acts appaulingly.

I'm sorry but I've got to ask those who are Pro-Isreal, how do you justify attacks on innocent Arabs and other ethnic minorities?

How is the way they treat Arabs any different to the way the Nazi's treated them?
 

ainsworth74

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I'm sorry but I've got to ask those who are Pro-Isreal, how do you justify attacks on innocent Arabs and other ethnic minorities?

Whilst I wouldn't consider myself pro-Israel (more neutral, I found there boarding of the convoy recently to be stupid, pointless and an overreaction for instance), I have to say here what about the inocent Israeli civilians killed in thousands of rocket attacks every year? What do propose Israel does about them, sit back and do nothing? Do you honestly belive that is what the UK government or any other government would do nothing but grin and bear it if the country was being attacked daily with rockets?
 

asylumxl

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Lmao. So if someone fires a rocket, you go and attack civilians. So your average Palestinian has the money and experience to fire rockets at Isreal?
 

ainsworth74

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Lmao. So if someone fires a rocket, you go and attack civilians. So your average Palestinian has the money and experience to fire rockets at Isreal?

What would you do? Hamas is where the Palestinian civilians are, if your going to try and do anything about the people attacking you, your going to have to go to them. How do you do that without affecting the civilians in the process? It isn't good and it certainly isn't right but Israel has to do something. Your seriously telling me that you would sit back and do absolutely nothing in the face of daily attacks on your own civilian (worth remembering that Israeli civilians are dieing as well) population?
 

Nick W

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I would be very surprised if Israel had nuclear warheads specifically aimed in our direction!

What has to be remembered is that international relations are not about enforcing our derived morals, or Western-derived international laws. Morals and international laws should obviously play a part in our action and relations, and it would be wonderful if we could simply enforce this law absolutely without any repercussion, however this simply isn't possible.

We must remember that ever since the state was created, we have had a unique relationship that we have with no other state in the immediate area, and this paves a way towards securing peace in the Middle East. Clearly this will not happen overnight and indeed has not happened in decades, but if our action irritates Israel we risk losing the distance gained down this long windy path. Equally of course, we must factor in to our decisions, the effect on our relations with the surrounding states of Israel in our relations, particularly if we seem to exercise one rule for Israel and another for another state.

It is clear then why the actions of Western states can sometimes appear to be lacking in toughness against the inequities of Israel, or indeed the Arab states. I'm not fully in support of every decision made by our state, but the rationale behind their decision making is clear.
 

marku51

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First and foremost, this article is a load of tripe, and is at least 4 years old, since it refers to Ariel Sharon as Prime Minister. Sharon had a stroke in 2006 and has been in a coma ever since, and the country has moved on. That's strike one. Strike two is that it is written and published by the Islamic Association of Palestine (look at the end) which is a front for Hamas in the US. Probable bias. Strike three is that the whole premise is flawed--Yes, Israel has nukes that they could point at European capitals. So does the US. So does Russia. So does China. Shoot, the UK could nuke Paris if they wanted. Changing the targeting information of a ballistic missile isn't difficult if a country wants to do it. It takes an hour or so, since these days it's just software. So stating that Israel could nuke someone is a bit silly.

That's my bit against the article. What follows is a bit on how I perceive the problem with Israel. You don't have to read it, but I've studied the area a bit (i.e. first two years at uni and some other stuff, not just Wikipedia) and I just finished a Master's in Political Science/International Relations (graduated yesterday, anyone got a job for me?). So there might be some valid ideas. Feel free to disagree.



The thing with Israel is that they occupy a rather precarious political position in international relations. Yes, there is a lot of western guilt about the Holocaust, and yes there are a lot of rich Jews with a lot of influence in the US, and probably some in other countries. But guilt and influence only go so far.

The problem for Israel, and this has been a problem since their independence, is that they perceive themselves to be an pariah on the international stage--i.e. they don't think that anyone would help them, and they feel excluded. And this is probably true, or at least it has been in the past. Would the US put troops on the ground to protect Israel from a hostile Egypt or Jordan? No, or at least they didn't in 1967 or 1973. And in both of those cases there was a real threat to the state of Israel. They US might hem and haw, or might support idea of a possible secret operation, but despite all of the influence and all of the guilt, western governments would never put troops on the ground in Israel.

So Israel is faced with the problem of feeling constantly under attack and constantly threatened with destruction. How much of this threat is real? Probably not a lot, but there is a cultural memory of the many wars of the past 60 years and of the many real threats to Israel. Because of this the idea of defense is part of Israel's political system. They are automatically going to assume that someone is going to attack them and no one is going to support them.

Hopefully this is starting to change. But the problem is that there are organizations, especially Hamas, and countries, Iran now and Iraq and many others in the past, who publicly state that they support the destruction of Israel. And it is easy for us to look at Hamas or Iran and think that they are a bunch of loonies, but the Israelis and especially the Israeli government remember 1973 when Israel came very close to being overrun. So they take the threats seriously, and act accordingly. And they've been fighting for so long--it takes time to get over old wars. This is true on both sides. Years ago when I was learning Arabic I became friends with some guys from Palestine and they used to tell us stories about how they spent their childhoods--throwing rocks at Israeli tanks. Not because they really hated Israelis, but because that was what you did.

Israel needs to start acting like a respectable state and stop dealing with problems like a rouge state. If they have a problem they need to deal with it on the international stage, working with the EU and the UN and not making unilateral decisions. If they act like a bunch of loonies (the blockade thing comes to mind) then they will be treated as such.

Thanks for reading

mark
 

ainsworth74

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Would the US put troops on the ground to protect Israel from a hostile Egypt or Jordan? No, or at least they didn't in 1967 or 1973.

I'm not so sure thats true now. Back in '67 and '73 the US was fighting the Cold War, if they had put troops into direct combat actions against Syria, Jordan or Egypt for the Israeli's then almost certainly the Soviets would have done the same on the other side and that's World War 3 right there. Now in the present day I think they might well intervene if there was a clear and present danger to the continuing existance of Israel (at least the previous US administration probably would have, I don't think Obama has the stones for such an action). Whether the US has the manpower and equipment to fight such a war is an issue, but as a hypothetical I think they might well fight along side Israel in extreme conditions.

I also agree with everything else your wrote by the by, very interesting.
 

yorkie

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Whilst I wouldn't consider myself pro-Israel (more neutral, I found there boarding of the convoy recently to be stupid, pointless and an overreaction for instance), I have to say here what about the inocent Israeli civilians killed in thousands of rocket attacks every year? What do propose Israel does about them, sit back and do nothing? Do you honestly belive that is what the UK government or any other government would do nothing but grin and bear it if the country was being attacked daily with rockets?
If someone decided that a new state should replace the UK, and this new state would be for the benefit of people from one particular religion, and the rest of us forced to live in poverty and behind barriers, if our homes and hospitals were bulldozed, and if we were treated like 2nd class citizens, and the UK was no longer acknowledged as being a state, if some of us got rather fed up at this and fired a rocket in retaliation I wouldn't blame them. Meanwhile you would, in your own words, "sit back and do nothing"? If someone did that to us I'd be furious, wouldn't you?!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Israel needs to start acting like a respectable state and stop dealing with problems like a rouge state. If they have a problem they need to deal with it on the international stage, working with the EU and the UN and not making unilateral decisions. If they act like a bunch of loonies (the blockade thing comes to mind) then they will be treated as such.
The chances of that happening any time soon are about zero, quite frankly. They are a rouge state, and a very dangerous one at that, a major threat to stability in the region. One that we helped to create :oops::(<(
 

ainsworth74

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The creation of Israel is a mess of monumental proportions (and a mess of our own creation) and something which I would rather not discuss because the facts about it are something I'm not strong on and I'm likely to get them wrong and have it spiral into name calling.

However accepting Israel's existence my point still stands, what would you have Israel do as its own citizens are killed by rockets from Gaza? What would you have any other nation do in Israel's situation? As I said earlier would you honestly have them do nothing and take it and let their civilians die? Do you think that a goverment that did this would be long for this world?

I apreciate your civility in this matter as on so many other boards Israel v Palestine threads decend into name calling and flamewars :(
 

yorkie

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However accepting Israel's existence my point still stands, what would you have Israel do as its own citizens are killed by rockets from Gaza?
For one they could allow the state of Palestine to exist. It is absolutely ludicrous to automatically assume that Israel has the 'right' to exist, yet ignore the right of Palestine to exist. How can anyone can approach this situation from that view is beyond my comprehension.
What would you have any other nation do in Israel's situation?
How many other states are in the situation where they replaced a previous state, and forced the previous inhabitants to live in poverty? Perhaps the solution is not to be in that "situation" in the first place? And if your ancestors behaved so disgracefully then you can at least break the circle by recognising your past mistakes and putting them right, that is the only way forward.
As I said earlier would you honestly have them do nothing and take it and let their civilians die? Do you think that a goverment that did this would be long for this world?
Your idea of doing "nothing" is continuing to refuse to allow the state of Palestine to exist, and to continue to treat Palestinians like 2nd class citizens, and to deny them their freedom?
 

ainsworth74

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For one they could allow the state of Palestine to exist. It is absolutely ludicrous to automatically assume that Israel has the 'right' to exist, yet ignore the right of Palestine to exist. How can anyone can approach this situation from that view is beyond my comprehension.

Israel now exists, its has citizens who want to be Israeli. Where do they go if we cross Israel off the map and create Palestine again? We could go down the route that we need create both countries in the region, but then who gets what (I'm sure both will want Jerusalem) and how do we divide the extremely limited territory up so there is room for the millions of people that live in the region to live in their chosen country and how do we divde the water resources in the region so both can't be blackmailed by the other?

How many other states are in the situation where they replaced a previous state, and forced the previous inhabitants to live in poverty? Perhaps the solution is not to be in that "situation" in the first place? And if your ancestors behaved so disgracefully then you can at least break the circle by recognising your past mistakes and putting them right, that is the only way forward.

Thankfully not many. And I agree with you fully its time that people stopped looking at the past and started doing something about the future and righting past wrongs.

Your idea of doing "nothing" is continuing to refuse to allow the state of Palestine to exist, and to continue to treat Palestinians like 2nd class citizens, and to deny them their freedom?

I think you've not understood me here. I'm saying Israel is doing something about the attacks against its cities, that action is to use force against force. When I say do nothing, I'm talking about people who say Israel should leave the Gaza and areas like it alone. Well rockets are hitting Israel from Gaza and you expect Israel to not react to that attack i.e. do nothing? I don't mean do nothing about the situation that Palestinians and Israelis find themselves in.

I certainly don't want to deny Palestinians their freedom. Israel and the world should do something about it now, rather than the world ignore the situation as much as it can whilst Israel seems quite happy not to do any talking about the issue or make any serious moves to find a solution. We cannot continue to have this endless cycle of violence between Israel and the Palestinians. But what do you suggest we do? And in the meantime is Israel to just allow its citizens to be killed?
 

yorkie

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Israel now exists, its has citizens who want to be Israeli. Where do they go if we cross Israel off the map and create Palestine again? We could go down the route that we need create both countries in the region, but then who gets what (I'm sure both will want Jerusalem) and how do we divide the extremely limited territory up so there is room for the millions of people that live in the region to live in their chosen country and how do we divde the water resources in the region so both can't be blackmailed by the other?
The only workable solution now is to have two states. Yes there will be a problem of sorting out the terms for it, but what's the alternative? To even hint that the status quo can remain is an insult to the people who have been treated incredibly badly, for which our ancestors are at least partly responsible. Just because there will be difficulties in having two states does not make any excuses for even considering the possibility of the existing unacceptable situation continuing IMO.


Thankfully not many. And I agree with you fully its time that people stopped looking at the past and started doing something about the future and righting past wrongs.
Yes, and that has to include the existence of a Palestinian state.


I think you've not understood me here. I'm saying Israel is doing something about the attacks against its cities, that action is to use force against force.
That will achieve absolutely nothing. The force the Israelis have is infinitely greater than the Palestinians have, but that goes for almost every aspect of the lives of people there. If we do not work toward equality of living standards and equality of how people are considered, there will not be any hope of a solution.
When I say do nothing, I'm talking about people who say Israel should leave the Gaza and areas like it alone. Well rockets are hitting Israel from Gaza and you expect Israel to not react to that attack i.e. do nothing? I don't mean do nothing about the situation that Palestinians and Israelis find themselves in.
Again, it's approaching the situation from a bizarre viewpoint. That's like saying "Did you expect Hitler to do nothing when we resisted his invasion?" Quite frankly it's the 'wrong' question and the answer you seek (which is "Yes, they should fight back" ?) is not going to solve anything!
I certainly don't want to deny Palestinians their freedom. Israel and the world should do something about it now, rather than the world ignore the situation as much as it can whilst Israel seems quite happy not to do any talking about the issue or make any serious moves to find a solution. We cannot continue to have this endless cycle of violence between Israel and the Palestinians.
Yes, I agree we cannot.
But what do you suggest we do?
Work toward equality, and having two states, obviously.
And in the meantime is Israel to just allow its citizens to be killed?
That is an absolutely absurd, incredibly biased and bizarre statement. You are either incredibly pro-Israel to come out with that and ignore what is happening to Palestinians, or you have a massive lack of understanding about the situation.

How many Israelis are dying each day? How many Palestinians are dying each day? If you look into it, you must surely realise the absurdity of such a question, without at least being balanced by the opposite view (ie, should Palestinians just allow their citizens to die?)
 
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