"It will get a bit lively after York"

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sheff1

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There have been various discussions on here regarding the situation on trains leaving York on Saturday evenings. Yesterday, though, I had a novel experience.

I was making my fairly regular journey on the 1900 Edinburgh - Doncaster when, after Darlington (by which time there were only a handful of passengers left in Coach B at the rear of the train), the guard came though and asked where people were travelling to. When I replied "Doncaster" he said "It will get a bit lively in this carriage after York" and suggested I might wish to move down towards the front of the train. I said that I always did that anyway approaching York on this service and he gave a knowing smile and moved on.

This was the first time, on any train, that I had been forewarned of problem passengers about to board at a following station and wondered if it was a new policy from VTEC or just an initiative by this one guard ?

Around 200 revellers did board at York but, as usual, they all crammed into the rear of the train and the peace was undisturbed in Coach H. Judging by the racket when the train emptied at Donny, I wonder if the couple sitting just down from me in Coach B regretted not heeding the guard's warning and staying put ?
 
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trentside

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I'd imagine it was just the guards own initiative.

I do sometimes warn people on certain trains that they may get lively and they'd be better off moving elsewhere. It's more difficult when you only have two carriages though!
 

yorkie

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On TPE I've known Guards invite passengers continuing beyond York into 1st (especially if 1st is at the rear) and GC have also issued warnings too.

Saturday evening trains going to Doncaster, Eaglescliffe, Thornaby & some other destinations can be particularly rowdy.

Some of the rabble make it difficult for passengers to alight.
 

DarloRich

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Some of the rabble make it difficult for passengers to alight.

Didn't take long did it. People from Doncaster, Eaglescliffe, Thornaby are rabble eh? :roll: How dare they have the temerity to visit York?

(What about Yarm people - they might get off at Eaglescliffe as it is close to their house- are they rabble or is it just those actually from Eaglescliffe? That should keep the numbers of rabblers down)

This was the first time, on any train, that I had been forewarned of problem passengers about to board at a following station and wondered if it was a new policy from VTEC or just an initiative by this one guard ?


it will be the guard offering some customer service rather than a policy.
 
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yorkie

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Didn't take long did it. People from Doncaster, Eaglescliffe, Thornaby are rabble eh? :roll: How dare they have the temerity to visit York?
I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here.

Are you disagreeing with me that trains to those destinations are rowdy, or that it can be difficult for passengers to alight?

Or are you saying that the situation is acceptable in your opinion and I am wrong for taking a dislike to their behaviour?

The Guards are quite right to warn people of the rowdiness and it is a big problem, regardless of what you think.
(What about Yarm people - they might get off at Eaglescliffe as it is close to their house- are they rabble or is it just those actually from Eaglescliffe? That should keep the numbers of rabblers down)
There are no trains that call at Yarm that do not also call at Thornaby, so it's a moot point.
 

DarloRich

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I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here.

Are you disagreeing with me that trains to those destinations are rowdy, or that it can be difficult for passengers to alight?

Or are you saying that the situation is acceptable in your opinion and I am wrong for taking a dislike to their behaviour?

There are no trains that call at Yarm that do not also call at Thornaby, so it's moot.

I am saying that, as normal, you class anyone who dares come to York for a day out and get the train home after a few drinks as some sort of scummy rabble that shouldn't be allowed anywhere near your fair city. it is judgmental and based on your own prejudice.

I note from a previous thread on this topic that you indicated you were happy to ram these rabble with your bike if they didn't exit the train fast enough. Terribly civilised.
 
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yorkie

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I am saying that, as normal, you class anyone who dares come to York for a day out and get the train home after a few drinks as some sort of scummy rabble that shouldn't be allowed anywhere near your fair city. it is judgmental and based on your own prejudice.
That is absolute nonsense which you have made up. I have said no such thing.

On the contrary, I have welcomed many visitors to York myself, as evidenced by our regular forum pub meets and meals in York.
I note from a previous thread on this topic that you indicated you were happy to ram these rabble with your bike if they didn't exit the train fast enough. Terribly civilised.
On the contrary, I - along with other passengers - was exiting the train and some of the individuals chose not to allow passengers to alight first. They chose to attempt to board by wedging themselves between my handle bars and the side of the train when there was clearly insufficient room. Same behaviour as shown here, but on a much much smaller scale (obviously), and I am not going to be pushed back into the train (and I doubt you would either).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
... I wonder if the couple sitting just down from me in Coach B regretted not heeding the guard's warning and staying put ?
Very likely. Anyway, well done that Guard! It's not uncommon but it doesn't always happen. It is a huge problem and I am amazed that some people seem to be condoning or dismissing the behaviour of some passengers on these late Saturday trains.

Edit: There is plenty of reading material here, and here is an example of what can happen if you can't stick up for yourself when alighting: 60-year-old woman says she was flattened by York drunks
...Four of us were trying to get off the train, and around 30 people were trying to get on. They didn't let us off, and I was pushed backwards....
Let's not trivialise this. It is a big problem. If I see this happen, I will shout at them to let people off first. Their behaviour is unacceptable. It's obvious to any right minded person who has alighted from, or remained on board, any of the affected services.
 
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DarloRich

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It has been brought to my attention that I have misrepresented the position of Yorkie and of his bike/train passenger interaction. I withdraw the statement and apolgise for my mistake and any associated unpleasantness.

Mea culpa

(I will leave it in the thread or things will get confused)
 
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rg177

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I used the 1911 London-Sunderland last night to York and there were repeated announcements that the train was to be declared as dry after there. I'm honestly so glad I got off as the platform was utterly nuts, and indeed I felt like I had to be off the train quick as people were keen to ram themselves on, running around screaming in the process.

I changed onto the 2110 to Newcastle which wasn't much better. Opted to go into first class and get the £6 upgrade for some peace but in the end it was overrun by a drunk group of middle aged men who dressed themselves in the antimacassars on the seats and acted as bouncers, heckling those walking through to the toilet. In the end, the guard said there was no point in me paying the upgrade as nobody else in the carriage had a first class ticket anyway.

I'm a regular user of the 2110 TPE and honestly it just seems to get worse as the weather gets warmer. The behaviour of some passengers is an utter disgrace.
 

wensley

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I used the 1911 London-Sunderland last night to York and there were repeated announcements that the train was to be declared as dry after there. I'm honestly so glad I got off as the platform was utterly nuts, and indeed I felt like I had to be off the train quick as people were keen to ram themselves on, running around screaming in the process.

In terms of passenger numbers that was actually pretty quiet this weekend! One of the big issues is ensuring passengers are able to alight before the mob board. Various approaches have been tried with varying degrees of success, but it's certainly something that it closely monitored.

I can't speak for the Guard's actions for the 1900 EDB-DON (2153 ex-York), but on the 2100 KGX-NCL (2256 ex-YRK) the leading two vehicles are specifically unreserved for the use of the hordes from York, with the Guard ensuring any other passengers are offered the chance to move back down the train prior to arrival at York.

You'd be amazed the amount of time spent between station staff and traincrew on a Saturday at York, co-ordinating the positioning of various passenger groups and trains on platforms to try and minimise the impact of the drunken masses.
 

rg177

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In terms of passenger numbers that was actually pretty quiet this weekend! One of the big issues is ensuring passengers are able to alight before the mob board. Various approaches have been tried with varying degrees of success, but it's certainly something that it closely monitored.

I can't speak for the Guard's actions for the 1900 EDB-DON (2153 ex-York), but on the 2100 KGX-NCL (2256 ex-YRK) the leading two vehicles are specifically unreserved for the use of the hordes from York, with the Guard ensuring any other passengers are offered the chance to move back down the train prior to arrival at York.

You'd be amazed the amount of time spent between station staff and traincrew on a Saturday at York, co-ordinating the positioning of various passenger groups and trains on platforms to try and minimise the impact of the drunken masses.
On previous nights I've noticed some pretty large operations in place, security boarding trains and all that, but I mean for this TPE there was zero attempt made to do anything. The guard was simply on his own and there was nothing anyone could really do.
 

sheff1

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Good to hear that it seems quite common for guards to warn people, it was just that it was the first time I had encountered it.

The experience of being 'invaded' could be quite frightening for people who were not expecting it and, of course, once the rabble are on board it would be very difficult to force your way through them to a quieter area (especially if you had luggage). I am just glad that the Donny crowd don't have the wit to spread out along the train - as has been mentioned, the problem would be much worse on shorter trains.


You'd be amazed the amount of time spent between station staff and traincrew on a Saturday at York, co-ordinating the positioning of various passenger groups and trains on platforms to try and minimise the impact of the drunken masses.

Is there ever a ticket check set up for those joining the 2153 to Doncaster ?
 
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LewFinnis

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Surely it begs the question as to why the 'revellers' are ever allowed onto the platform in the first place. They must be breaking several railway by-laws.
 

wensley

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Good luck enforcing that :lol:

Exactly! Whilst that would be the ideal solution if simply isn't feasible given the number of drinkers vs. number of staff. The trick is to use the powers of ejection to pick off the worst, and this often releases tension amongst the remainder.
 

NSEFAN

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LewFinnis said:
Surely it begs the question as to why the 'revellers' are ever allowed onto the platform in the first place. They must be breaking several railway by-laws.
Far better to have drunk people traveling by train than attempting to drive. It's all about the greater good!
 

Flamingo

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Far better to have drunk people traveling by train than attempting to drive. It's all about the greater good!

So the fact they they are drunk excuses their behaviour, and everybody else has to just put up with them because "it's just the guys/girls having a laugh"?
 

NSEFAN

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Flamingo said:
So the fact they they are drunk excuses their behaviour, and everybody else has to just put up with them because "it's just the guys/girls having a laugh"?
Not at all, I was merely responding to the point about byelaws being broken by having drunk passengers on the railway. Whilst it's not supposed to be allowed, from the perspective of overall law enforcement and public safety it's better to keep drunk people off the road. There still needs to be policing on the trains and stations, however.
 

al78

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Not at all, I was merely responding to the point about byelaws being broken by having drunk passengers on the railway. Whilst it's not supposed to be allowed, from the perspective of overall law enforcement and public safety it's better to keep drunk people off the road. There still needs to be policing on the trains and stations, however.

What you said was an example of a false dilemma. The choice is not purely between drunken behaviour on a train and drink driving. There are other ways to go out and have a drink without inflicting costs or danger on others, for example, having a drink locally where using a taxi is viable, or having a non drinker in the group who is willing to drive.
 

edwin_m

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What you said was an example of a false dilemma. The choice is not purely between drunken behaviour on a train and drink driving. There are other ways to go out and have a drink without inflicting costs or danger on others, for example, having a drink locally where using a taxi is viable, or having a non drinker in the group who is willing to drive.

How about not getting so drunk that they are a danger to themselves and a menace to those around them?
 

DarloRich

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What you said was an example of a false dilemma. The choice is not purely between drunken behaviour on a train and drink driving. There are other ways to go out and have a drink without inflicting costs or danger on others, for example, having a drink locally where using a taxi is viable, or having a non drinker in the group who is willing to drive.

so: please feel free to go for a night out but don't go further than 5 miles from your residence or with a group of friends?

People will go for a day/night out with their friends and York is a decent day out in a city with a good choice of different pubs and an opportunity to meet potential partners. It is a short train ride from some much bigger towns and cities and has a good train service in all directions until quite late. People will drink. Some people will drink far too much and some of those will be difficult.

You wont stop people travelling for a night out. The issue is how to deal with them, why it is such a problem in York and what can be done to deal with the issues AND why it has taken York City Council so long to start tackling the problem.

How about not getting so drunk that they are a danger to themselves and a menace to those around them?

I am sure we have all done it once or twice but there is a wider question about why so many people drink too much too often.
 
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Flying_Turtle

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I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say?

Quite simply you join together 200 people, who went for a night out, in a contained space, sub divided in groups of 4 to 10 people who went out together, add a bit of alcohol and even even if they are the most calm and law abbidding citizens they will look rowdy
 

Deepgreen

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so: please feel free to go for a night out but don't go further than 5 miles from your residence or with a group of friends?

People will go for a day/night out with their friends and York is a decent day out in a city with a good choice of different pubs and an opportunity to meet potential partners. It is a short train ride from some much bigger towns and cities and has a good train service in all directions until quite late. People will drink. Some people will drink far too much and some of those will be difficult.

You wont stop people travelling for a night out. The issue is how to deal with them, why it is such a problem in York and what can be done to deal with the issues AND why it has taken York City Council so long to start tackling the problem.



I am sure we have all done it once or twice but there is a wider question about why so many people drink too much too often.

Also, some of those will be easy, but that's another story!
 

NSEFAN

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al78 said:
What you said was an example of a false dilemma. The choice is not purely between drunken behaviour on a train and drink driving. There are other ways to go out and have a drink without inflicting costs or danger on others, for example, having a drink locally where using a taxi is viable, or having a non drinker in the group who is willing to drive.
I am looking at it from the point of view of the BTP and railways, who can't physically stop people from getting drunk. In a nice world without problems, we'd have all people going for a night out taking it easy on the drink and not causing problems for others. Alternatively, they plan to have a non-drinker with them to drive home if they intend on getting absolutely smashed. I'm sure there are people who are so thoughtful to others, but I having been on overcrowded trains with lots of drunks I don't expect those kinds of passengers to be that sort of person. ;)
 

darloscott

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Having been a passenger on the 2026 Middlesbrough service from York too many times on a Saturday I'm glad to hear things are getting more organised in terms of tackling the issues. Last time I used it from Leeds and the guard did offer a move to the front coach but in the end it wasn't really too bad, compared to previous journeys on that one!
 

yorkie

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Quite simply you join together 200 people, who went for a night out, in a contained space, sub divided in groups of 4 to 10 people who went out together, add a bit of alcohol and even even if they are the most calm and law abbidding citizens they will look rowdy
If only it was just that! But believe me, it can be much more than that on occasions! Here are some examples...
....There is plenty of reading material here, and here is an example of what can happen if you can't stick up for yourself when alighting: 60-year-old woman says she was flattened by York drunks....
 

DarloRich

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Sadly, that simply shows York Press have a bee in their bonnet about the good people of York being afflicted by terrible oikish off comers. ;) ( I am no fan of the Press. I have never liked their reporting)

I have never considered York to be a no go area on a Saturday night and don't believe the problems to be any worse (or better) than any other city you chose to visit. I struggle to understand why York has such a problem or why the council have taken so long to try to deal with what they clearly perceive to be an issue. Are they really keen to do anything about it?
 
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