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Junctions in need of a Carstairs style speed up to improve services

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adamedwards

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There's an impressive video in the Carstairs thread showing how fast the east to south curve now is with the works done so far, see the links on this page:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-equipment-renewals-and-upgrade.235318/page-4

This demonstrates that dealing with slow junctions and crossings (and other speed limits) often has far more impact on journey times than increasing the top speed.

So what junctions should we be looking at to gain major benefits in service improvements? (Money is of course ready on the magic tree for this one!)
 
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Bartsimho

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Something I could immediately think of is the Flat Crossing at Newark to allow more paths for the ECML and the Nottingham to Lincoln line although that isn't really speed. Adding an effective junction at Clay Cross North and Chesterfield North could allow proper use of Platform 3 at Chesterfield as well to create more path.

Dore curve could also use some work as you go from the MML Up out of Sheffield to the Hope Valley Down and have to cross the Down MML
 

Bletchleyite

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The junction that would probably bring most benefit to fix in the whole country would probably be Castlefield, though it'd be more about capacity by adding flyovers than about speed per se.
 

Bald Rick

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Something I could immediately think of is the Flat Crossing at Newark to allow more paths for the ECML and the Nottingham to Lincoln line although that isn't really speed.

That’s not a slow speed crossing though, and speeding it up would add no additional paths.


It’s been one of my career missions to do this (speed up junctions where it is relatively easy to do so at renewal), and my fingerprints are on multiple examples.

Bit I’ll add (for starters)

Preston
Carlisle
Stechford Jn
Redhill
Bury St Edmunds
various junctions at Streatham / Streatham North
 
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Bletchleyite

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While the Southern service onto the WCML is now rather cut-back, the slowness of the entire section including junctions between the WCML and the WLL is appalling - you'd save ten minutes or more by sorting all that out.
 

hexagon789

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That’s not a slow speed crossing though, and speeding it up would add no additional paths.


It’s been one of my career missions to do this (speed up junctions where it is relatively easy to do so at renewal), and my fingerprints are on multiple examples.

Bit I’ll add (for starters)

Preston
Carlisle
Stechford Jn
Redhill
Bury St Edmunds
barious junctions at Streatham / Streatham North
What are the present restrictions at those places and what sort of figures could they be increased to?
 

43096

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The junction that would probably bring most benefit to fix in the whole country would probably be Castlefield, though it'd be more about capacity by adding flyovers than about speed per se.
Slade Lane Junction could also do with remodelling with flyovers.
 

waverley47

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Eating capacity

Disclaimer: to answer this question, you really have to go looking through the timetables or speaking to planners to get a good idea, but there are some common sense ones as well.

There are quite a few key junctions on the network that are such constrained pinch points that they by definition set the timetable for an entire route. Woking junction is by far the most famous, as the flat junction there is the starting point for writing the the timetable for almost the whole LSWR route. You'd solve that with a flyover and a bit of remodelling, but ultimately it wouldn't cost the world.

Similar junctions include previously mentioned Castlefield, Newbridge and Haymarket South near Edinburgh, and the complex at Windmill Bridge. Windmill Bridge was planned, now on hold, and doing anything with Castlefield would be very pricey indeed. Off the top of my head, some others that fill the same criteria include;

Colwich
Slade Lane
Trent Valley Junction
Heaton Norrish
Law Junction
The entirety of Crewe station
Swinton
Syston

The problem is, the capacity loss at these junctions isn't because they're slow, it's because they're badly designed flat junctions in key places for a modern day railway.
Haughley junction in Suffolk fits this category; it limits quite severely the amount of trains that can go north out of Felixstowe, and it's been on the cards for ages. You'd fix it with a double lead junction, but that's ten million or so for the resignalling and remodelling, and that's a lot of nurses and doctors.

These junctions, and they are almost universally single lead where they should be double lead, or flat where they should be grade separated, eat capacity on the modern railway. Defensive driving and signal protections mean that you have to approach slowly, and wait your turn. The moment something runs late, you're holding up everything else waiting for your slot.

But, and there is always a bit, it's never that simple. Take for example the thirty-odd mile section between Carstairs and Glasgow Central: there are no less than 8 flat junctions along this stretch. Solving Carstairs is sorely needed, eliminates a dodgy PSR, and speeds up three sides of a triangle, but equally, it isn't going to give you any capacity. Instead, any conflicts are shuffled around, and reappear somewhere else.

It's the same with Newark: speeding up the junction does nothing, because the conflicts are still there. You need grade separation to make a difference, and suddenly we are talking about budgets in the high tens of millions at least.

That is the sad reality of our network. If we were rebuilding it from scratch today, we wouldn't build it as the Victorians did. We'd have much more grade separation, and more segregation of fast and stopping and freight services for a start.
 

cle

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While the Southern service onto the WCML is now rather cut-back, the slowness of the entire section including junctions between the WCML and the WLL is appalling - you'd save ten minutes or more by sorting all that out.
Definitely. And if this even became more metro in nature (2tph, truncated at Watford) - those minutes would be precious and make the service far more compelling, especially for those already familiar with it. And maybe worth the investment if an OOC stop was worked out.

I would add some of the near terminus approaches and getting up towards line speeds sooner / slowing down later - could Ladbroke Grove be looked at again? Also TL crawls through Kentish Town, it could be going a good clip by then. You'd save a minute or two on every train, is the best part of doing it so close to the trunk/terminus. Obviously not those calling at Kentish Town, in that example. But you could easily trim a minute off every GWML/CR1 service by looking at Ladbroke Grove.
 

brad465

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Herne Hill for Thameslink services could do with speeding up to help services cross the junctions while departing the station. I would also say many of the Lewisham junctions, except they've been renewed very recently.
 

Nick Ashwell

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Royal Wotton Bassett could likely do with a speed increase from the 70mph it currently is to and from the Badminton line, although I'm not entirely sure it's viable, especially as I think (may be wrong) trains from Chippenham seem to have priority at the junction as they maintain their speed over the junction
 

TheBigD

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What are the present restrictions at those places and what sort of figures could they be increased to?
With regard to Bury St Edmunds, the linespeed through the station is 30mph with a 70*mph speed either side of it. The station formerly had centre roads and the track now doglegs through the station, hence the speed limit. There are also short loops on both the up and the down lines to the west of the station so a lot of work is needed. If you had the money you'd extend the platforms out and straighten the track, move the points for the loops so that the liners could pass through at 70mph as opposed to 30mph.

* I think it is 70mph but I've not checked the sectional appendix.

A general point about capacity constraints, there are a lot of loops where the trains have to slow right down (often approach controlled) and pass in to the loop at 15mph.
 

zwk500

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This demonstrates that dealing with slow junctions and crossings (and other speed limits) often has far more impact on journey times than increasing the top speed.
This is a golden rule, and should be drummed into Politicians. Fix the slow stuff before you start trying to push the fastest stuff.
So what junctions should we be looking at to gain major benefits in service improvements? (Money is of course ready on the magic tree for this one!)
One big area is for Fast-To-Slow crossovers on 4-track mainlines. Chesterfield is criminally slow at times (as well as being single-lead but that's a different issue). Trent/Sheet Stores area would also be another focus, although a flyover might be a better bet than speed increases.
Others I can think of that need it badly are Yate/Westerleigh and the junctions either end of Wigan NW (the Fast Lines are fine, it's the loops and slows that get massively penalised.)
 

greyman42

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Is there not one on the Man. Pic. to Stalybridge section near Guide Bridge that is really slow?
 

The Planner

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That’s not a slow speed crossing though, and speeding it up would add no additional paths.


It’s been one of my career missions to do this (speed up junctions where it is relatively easy to do so at renewal), and my fingerprints are on multiple examples.

Bit I’ll add (for starters)

Preston
Carlisle
Stechford Jn
Redhill
Bury St Edmunds
barious junctions at Streatham / Streatham North
Preston is being looked at now, as is Carlisle. I even suggested single lead on Stechford through the back platform and moving the S&C east but got knocked back early doors with New St resig.

I would add Bushbury, Stone (though that would be a nightmare to do), Water Orton (which would have been solved if we did the original planned resig), flatten out Whitacre. Westerleigh but again difficult. Patchway. The list could go on and on.

Not junctions, but having anything less than 25mph entry and exit to loops needs to go in the bin. Elford and Kings Langley I am looking at you.
While the Southern service onto the WCML is now rather cut-back, the slowness of the entire section including junctions between the WCML and the WLL is appalling - you'd save ten minutes or more by sorting all that out.
Very little you can do with the dive under and reverse curves under the WCML.
 

John R

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I've wondered why Standish Jn (where the line to Swindon diverges from the main Birmingham to Bristol line) is as slow as it is (40mph i believe), given there appears lots of space for a faster turn out. OK, it's only 1 tph, but also very regularly used as a diversionary route for South Wales services.

Also Ebbw Junction is 15mph, which seems unduly low, even if the first bit of the branch up to Ebbw Vale means only a modest increase would be worthwhile.
 

Nick Ashwell

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I've wondered why Standish Jn (where the line to Swindon diverges from the main Birmingham to Bristol line) is as slow as it is (40mph i believe), given there appears lots of space for a faster turn out. OK, it's only 1 tph, but also very regularly used as a diversionary route for South Wales services.

Also Ebbw Junction is 15mph, which seems unduly low, even if the first bit of the branch up to Ebbw Vale means only a modest increase would be worthwhile.
I think Standish has been increased in speed. Funnily enough I only noticed checking earlier due to this thread as its always been slow when I use that route to Swindon, OpenRailwayMap says it's now 90mph, although it is worth doubting the accuracy without confirmation from a separate source
 

zwk500

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I think Standish has been increased in speed. Funnily enough I only noticed checking earlier due to this thread as its always been slow when I use that route to Swindon, OpenRailwayMap says it's now 90mph, although it is worth doubting the accuracy without confirmation from a separate source
At Standish the Down Kemble drops to 40mph at 106m 58ch for the merge, Up Kemble is 40mph from the points to 106m 70ch, Both lines are 90mph from there until east of Stroud station. The Up & Down Charfield (to/from Bristol) are 100mph throughout, the trailing crossover is 15mph!

(From the Sectional Appendix available publicy here: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...ators/national-electronic-sectional-appendix/)
 

ABB125

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Abbotswood Jn (where the line to Worcester diverges from Bristol-Birmingham). 30mph single lead. The mainline is 90mph here, and just after the junction the line speed to Worcester increases to 50. Then back to 30 again at Norton junction (where the line from Oxford merges). 70mph onwards into Worcester.
What I would do here is change Abbotswood to a double lead, at least 50mph. Then also change Norton: it's currently set up with the priority route being to Oxford, single track (although coming from Oxford there's a 25mph crossover). Now that basically everything on the Oxford line calls at Worcestershire Parkway, there's no need for the line and junction speeds to be so high, which should allow the speeds from Abbotswood to be increased. (And I would build the second high level platform at WOP, with double track from Norton Jn. But that's a bit more than upgrading a junction!)

NB: all speeds are taken from OpenRailMap, because it's too much effort to trawl through the hundreds of pages of Sectional Appendix to find the right pages! :D
 

30907

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Herne Hill for Thameslink services could do with speeding up to help services cross the junctions while departing the station. I would also say many of the Lewisham junctions, except they've been renewed very recently.
Unfortunately there's no room to do anything significant.
 

Falcon1200

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Similar junctions include previously mentioned Castlefield, Newbridge and Haymarket South near Edinburgh

If by Haymarket South you mean the junction immediately on the Glasgow side of Haymarket station, which is actually Haymarket East Jc, that is a result of the closure of Edinburgh Princes Street and the diversion of its services to Waverley; The level of train service now is far greater than when that alteration occurred, and it is difficult to see how the junction could be improved. Nearly every passenger train passing over it stops at Haymarket anyway!

Law Junction

It has occurred to me that a slightly lower-cost solution there would be to create a grade-separated junction by diverting the Up main line through the Law Jc/Wishaw line underbridge, curving round to a connection with the Up line from Wishaw further south.
 

Grumpy

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Horbury feels painfully slow.
Agreed. The journey on a Leeds-Sheffield via Barnsley semi fast seems to be in two parts. Between Leeds and Barnsley trains seem to amble along with no sense of urgency eg Horbury as mentioned but also Normanton and the general arrangement around Kirkgate. However the service seems to be transformed south of Barnsley

Settle junction is also rather frustrating. Southbound trains accelerate away from Giggleswick, build up speed then have to slam on the brakes for the crawl over the junction. I appreciate the volume of passengers/number of trains might make financial justification to do anything rather difficult.
 
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waverley47

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If by Haymarket South you mean the junction immediately on the Glasgow side of Haymarket station, which is actually Haymarket East Jc, that is a result of the closure of Edinburgh Princes Street and the diversion of its services to Waverley; The level of train service now is far greater than when that alteration occurred, and it is difficult to see how the junction could be improved. Nearly every passenger train passing over it stops at Haymarket anyway!

My mistake.

The solution to the problem at that junction is the building of the Dalmeny chord, with which I was intimately involved, but unfortunately now is kicked into the long grass.

Regarding law junction, the solution is likely to be a high speed bypass from Rutherglen post 2050
 

zwk500

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Unfortunately there's no room to do anything significant.
Would there be room at Lewisham if you got ride of one set of crossovers (e.g. So that trains could go Nunhead <> Blackheath but not St John's <> Hayes)?
 

AndrewE

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The solution to the problem at that junction is the building of the Dalmeny chord, with which I was intimately involved, but unfortunately now is kicked into the long grass.
Is that the same as the Almond chord?
 

Bald Rick

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While the Southern service onto the WCML is now rather cut-back, the slowness of the entire section including junctions between the WCML and the WLL is appalling - you'd save ten minutes or more by sorting all that out.

Unfortunately not. As part of the team that got the lines resignalled to passenger standards* - you can thank me later - I can advise that we looked at every possible way of raising the linespeed. The complexity of the signalling, along with the dive under and a few other factors make it ‘challenging’ to say the least. Besides, it is 8 minutes running time for the 3 and a bit miles from Wembley Central (starting from the station call) to Mitre Bridge Junction. So there’s no way you could save 10 minutes without a hyper-drive.

*Pre 2001, the trains crossed the WCML on the flat at West London Junction

Herne Hill for Thameslink services could do with speeding up to help services cross the junctions while departing the station. I would also say many of the Lewisham junctions, except they've been renewed very recently.

The constraint is not the junctions but the severity of the curves. I’ve looked at that personally.


Preston is being looked at now, as is Carlisle.

Good news.

I even suggested single lead on Stechford through the back platform and moving the S&C east but got knocked back early doors with New St resig.

Yes, I suggested exactly that in 1996.

I would add Bushbury, Stone (though that would be a nightmare to do), Water Orton

Bushbury is awkward - I looked at that too. Water Orton is a good shout, as is Whitaker towards Nuneaton.
 

TheBigD

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Water Orton is a good shout, as is Whitaker towards Nuneaton.

Whitacre was increased a fair few years ago. Only 30mph to 35mph though but still an increase. Or are you thinking along the lines of ditching the freight loop and repositioning the passenger lines?
 

Bald Rick

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What are the present restrictions at those places and what sort of figures could they be increased to?

Long day so can’t be certain, but I think Carlisle and Preston are both 30 throughout (Carlisle might be 20). No reason why they can’t be 60ish on certain lines, and certainly higher speeds into platforms. And before anyone says ’but all trains stop so it makes no difference - it would make a huge difference - easily a couple of minutes.

Stechford is 20 I think, a single lead there could easily make it 50 (which for a half mile long container Tain reduces the junction margin by around 2 minutes). Redhill 20 into the platforms (easily solved, although unpopular), that would easily save a minute or two.

Would there be room at Lewisham if you got ride of one set of crossovers (e.g. So that trains could go Nunhead <> Blackheath but not St John's <> Hayes)?

No, as the constraint is overall length for the turnouts; basically If you did what you suggest it would look exactly like half the current layout

Whitacre was increased a fair few years ago. Only 30mph to 35mph though but still an increase. Or are you thinking along the lines of ditching the freight loop and repositioning the passenger lines?

Yes!
 

TheBigD

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Whitacre was increased a fair few years ago. Only 30mph to 35mph though but still an increase. Or are you thinking along the lines of ditching the freight loop and repositioning the passenger lines?


Out of curiosity, what speeds would be possible given the junction with the line from Kingsbury Jn to consider?
 
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