Juxtaposed Controls

[TheWierdOne]

A different thread about the possibility of double decker trains in the Chunnel mentioned the fun and unique intergovernmental control scheme for the Channel Tunnel. This got me thinking about the juxtaposed controls, and specifically where they are done. In every (as far as I know) juxtaposed setup around the world, the controls are done at one end for both sides. So for instance the Hong Kong - Shenzhen line has all controls done for both directions at Hong Kong West Kowloon, and the Geneva - Lyon line has (or had, not sure how much the Swiss actually bother anymore, there were no border guards or customs officers in sight last time I went down that route) all controls done at Geneva Cornavin with no checks on passengers at Paris or Lyon.

So my main question is given that St Pancras is tight on space for border checks, but the actual track capacity is fine, could controls on Eurostar services be moved to their European ends to free up space at St Pancras? Given that the UK doesn't really care who leaves so exit checks aren't as much of a thing, it would mean that only EU (or Swiss if that ever happens) entry checks would be needed on Europe bound services, which would free up more space for departures at St Pancras. It's not like there would be many issues with illegal migration from the UK to the EU (insert Brexit joke here), and hopefully the increased passenger numbers and extra St Pancras capacity could allow Eurostar (or whoever is announcing a new Cross-Channel service this week) to run more trains and open new routes.

 

[Gaelan]

Given that the UK doesn't really care who leaves so exit checks aren't as much of a thing

The UK does keep track of exits (among other things, to enforce length of stay restrictions for visitors), they just outsource it to the airline/rail operator; the Eurostar employee (or contractor, I think) scanning your passport when you begin the security process at StP fulfills this role. I suppose there's no reason this couldn't be done at the far end, though, as the UK is clearly willing to outsource it.

hopefully the increased passenger numbers and extra St Pancras capacity could allow Eurostar (or whoever is announcing a new Cross-Channel service this week) to run more trains and open new routes.

In the past, opening customs facilities at new stations on the continent has posed a significant issue, as not all station layouts are conducive to it, and - even if a platform isn't dedicated to the purpose - the process of temporarily securing a platform prevents trains from using it for a while and significantly impacts capacity.

If anything, from this perspective the best approach would be to do everything at StP (and possibly Ashford/Ebbsfleet/Stratford), as (at least in the short term) adding new EU destinations is going to be much easier, track-layout-wise, than adding new UK destinations. It would, of course, require fixing the capacity problems.

(My personal view is that we should return to onboard controls, as was the case for the early years of Eurostar operation, but this is sadly unlikely for political reasons.)

 

[Austriantrain]

As long as security checks are needed before boarding, you will always need isolated platforms at continental stations, wherever border and custom controls are done. What you do save on if you centralize those on the UK side (which is unrealistic anyway) is the expensive outposting of UK personnel (security controls at e.g. Cologne can be done by local staff ofcourse).

In the end, the whole setup is not conducive to expansion unfortunately.

 

[TheWierdOne]

The UK does keep track of exits (among other things, to enforce length of stay restrictions for visitors), they just outsource it to the airline/rail operator; the Eurostar employee (or contractor, I think) scanning your passport when you begin the security process at StP fulfills this role. I suppose there's no reason this couldn't be done at the far end, though, as the UK is clearly willing to outsource it.

My bad, I know the UK tracks exits, but as far as I know the physical checks are fairly unusual and limited to specific services if Border Force is after someone specific, or if there's a particular concern about trafficking during a time period then Border Force might do a surge of checks. If Border Force was willing to use advanced passenger info and spot checks (if you had enough officers you could theoretically get everyone on board, do a surprise mass inspection with officers checking everyone in the train before it leaves) could the UK exit infrastructure at St P be got rid of, and then EU entry checks moved to destinations? (or done in transit on the train as the EU doesn't seem as opposed to that).

UK entry checks would remain the bugbear but I would've thought passport gates and advanced passenger info could reduce a lot of the infrastructure needed. Would it be allowable to have no sterile area other than a platform. Passengers wait on the station's main concourse and are only checked through when there's a train ready so people do entry/exit checks and get straight on the UK-bound train, rather than having the large holding area required.

The physical tunnel security is a pain, although I'm not sure why it's still required given that the only other long undersea rail tunnel, the Seikan in Japan, doesn't require it. Granted there's theoretically customs concerns but I have never been customs checked on Eurostar, only ever passport checked. I took a large bottle of liquor inside a ski boot back to the UK and nobody batted an eye.

 

[DanNCL]

The easiest way to open new routes, forgetting about the space issues at St Pancras for a minute, would be for all border formalities to be done at the UK end. But the lack of space at St Pancras makes that impossible.

The UK does keep track of exits (among other things, to enforce length of stay restrictions for visitors), they just outsource it to the airline/rail operator; the Eurostar employee (or contractor, I think) scanning your passport when you begin the security process at StP fulfills this role. I suppose there's no reason this couldn't be done at the far end, though, as the UK is clearly willing to outsource it.

Perhaps Eurostar do it differently. But certainly for air travel there’s nothing even remotely resembling an exit check on departing passengers. Your passport isn’t always scanned at the airport, often its just a visual check by staff that you match your passport photo, no different from most domestic flights in the UK these days. You have to provide your passport number either at booking or another point before travel, the operator then submits a list of passport numbers booked on each flight.
If someone doesn’t show up for their booked journey, as often happens with people wilfully overstaying their visas, the UK still thinks you’ve left, unless it’s changed in the last few years the list provided to the government of those leaving is those booked rather than those who actually turn up. So it’s a very poor system that’s open to exploitation.

I’d assumed that Eurostar was similar but if they actually scan your passport then it’s much more likely that only those actually travelling get recorded as exiting the UK.

In the past, opening customs facilities at new stations on the continent has posed a significant issue, as not all station layouts are conducive to it, and - even if a platform isn't dedicated to the purpose - the process of temporarily securing a platform prevents trains from using it for a while and significantly impacts capacity.

If anything, from this perspective the best approach would be to do everything at StP (and possibly Ashford/Ebbsfleet/Stratford), as (at least in the short term) adding new EU destinations is going to be much easier, track-layout-wise, than adding new UK destinations. It would, of course, require fixing the capacity problems.

(My personal view is that we should return to onboard controls, as was the case for the early years of Eurostar operation, but this is sadly unlikely for political reasons.)

An additional issue with opening new border posts on the continent is that the Germans aren’t (or weren’t) keen on the idea of UK Border Force staff operating in German soil.

I agree, onboard checks would be the best solution but it won’t happen in the current political climate. And the UK is entirely to blame for that as it happens on all the other external Schengen borders, with Romania, Serbia and Ukraine.

 

[Gaelan]

Perhaps Eurostar do it differently. But certainly for air travel there’s nothing even remotely resembling an exit check on departing passengers. Your passport isn’t always scanned at the airport, often its just a visual check by staff that you match your passport photo, no different from most domestic flights in the UK these days. You have to provide your passport number either at booking or another point before travel, the operator then submits a list of passport numbers booked on each flight.
If someone doesn’t show up for their booked journey, as often happens with people wilfully overstaying their visas, the UK still thinks you’ve left, unless it’s changed in the last few years the list provided to the government of those leaving is those booked rather than those who actually turn up. So it’s a very poor system that’s open to exploitation.

I’d assumed that Eurostar was similar but if they actually scan your passport then it’s much more likely that only those actually travelling get recorded as exiting the UK.

Oh interesting, I'd always assumed that the final check when boarding the plane (which I suppose only actually involves my boarding pass getting scanned, but still, they're linked) is what got reported to the government.

Historically Eurostar didn't require passport numbers ahead of time, so it was definitely the passport scan at the station that got sent to the government. They've started asking for passport numbers this year, but I'm not sure if this has corresponded to a change in station procedure.

As long as security checks are needed before boarding, you will always need isolated platforms at continental stations, wherever border and custom controls are done.

I don't believe that the security checks are truly necessary - if they were, they wouldn't allow cars though the tunnel with no checking. It's security theater, and I suspect it's only done because it's minimally disruptive when passport checks are needed anyway.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Oh interesting, I'd always assumed that the final check when boarding the plane (which I suppose only actually involves my boarding pass getting scanned, but still, they're linked) is what got reported to the government.

Historically Eurostar didn't require passport numbers ahead of time, so it was definitely the passport scan at the station that got sent to the government. They've started asking for passport numbers this year, but I'm not sure if this has corresponded to a change in station procedure.

I don't believe that the security checks are truly necessary - if they were, they wouldn't allow cars though the tunnel with no checking. It's security theater, and I suspect it's only done because it's minimally disruptive when passport checks are needed anyway.

If the Channel Tunnel Authority could be persuaded to reduce (or eliminate) the requirement for security checks, would that make the passport issue easier to resolve? Use advanced passenger info on inbound travellers and then you could just have staff at the doors to trains or platform entrances with handheld scanners or moveable desks accompanied by some suitable beefy types. If the Germans are still jumpy about Border Force that could hopefully be solved by a treaty being very clear about what they can and can't do. I.e: all they can do is bar access to the trains and remove people from them, with no power of arrest, only the power to eject. Spot checks could be performed on inbound trains at St Pancras whenever Border Force feels like it by directing the train to an empty island and checking people as they get to the escalators and lifts.

 

[Austriantrain]

I don't believe that the security checks are truly necessary - if they were, they wouldn't allow cars though the tunnel with no checking. It's security theater, and I suspect it's only done because it's minimally disruptive when passport checks are needed anyway.

I don’t believe they are necessary either, but nor do I believe anyone will ever have the guts to dispense with them. In general, such security rules, once introduced, never go away again because everyone is to scared of what would be said if something happens.

 

[stadler]

I would rather we just stopped each train twice and did border control at Cheriton and Coquelles instead. For the UK to Europe trains we would stop at Cheriton for exit checks and then Coquelles for entry checks. For the Europe to UK trains we would stop at Coquelles for exit checks and then Cheriton for entry checks. This is how almost every other country does it. If you cross the border on almost any other international train like Poland to Belarus or Estonia to Russia or Bulgaria to Turkey or China to Russia or dozens of other examples then this is what happens. This is also what most of the European countries did before Schengen was introduced.

This would completely solve all the issues about not having enough space for checks. The border control people would simply board the train twice at Cheriton and Coquelles and check all passports onboard the train. This would increase the journey time (you would need at least 30 minutes at Cheriton and at least 30 minutes at Coquelles probably) however this would be made up by the fact that you could just turn up at the station five minutes before your train and board. So it would be like a domestic journey. Overall i think this would be a huge improvement to the passenger experience.

The security checks are completely unnecessary and are just security theatre. If anyone wants to take any illegal items in to the UK or out of the UK then they can just take their vehicle on the ferry. I have taken my vehicle on the Newhaven to Dieppe ferry and Dieppe to Newhaven ferry dozens of times and there are zero security checks in either direction. None of the other ferry routes to or from the UK have security checks either when in a vehicle. I am sure all of the criminals know this. So there is zero logic for security checks. They are entirely unnecessary.

 

[TheWierdOne]

I would rather we just stopped each train twice and did border control at Cheriton and Coquelles instead. For the UK to Europe trains we would stop at Cheriton for exit checks and then Coquelles for entry checks. For the Europe to UK trains we would stop at Coquelles for exit checks and then Cheriton for entry checks. This is how almost every other country does it. If you cross the border on almost any other international train like Poland to Belarus or Estonia to Russia or Bulgaria to Turkey or China to Russia or dozens of other examples then this is what happens. This is also what most of the European countries did before Schengen was introduced.

This would completely solve all the issues about not having enough space for checks. The border control people would simply board the train twice at Cheriton and Coquelles and check all passports onboard the train. This would increase the journey time (you would need at least 30 minutes at Cheriton and at least 30 minutes at Coquelles probably) however this would be made up by the fact that you could just turn up at the station five minutes before your train and board. So it would be like a domestic journey. Overall i think this would be a huge improvement to the passenger experience.

The security checks are completely unnecessary and are just security theatre. If anyone wants to take any illegal items in to the UK or out of the UK then they can just take their vehicle on the ferry. I have taken my vehicle on the Newhaven to Dieppe ferry and Dieppe to Newhaven ferry dozens of times and there are zero security checks in either direction. None of the other ferry routes to or from the UK have security checks either when in a vehicle. I am sure all of the criminals know this. So there is zero logic for security checks. They are entirely unnecessary.

That would be extremely logical to be honest, and would save hugely on the staffing costs, even if you upped the number of Border Force staff to get trains through quicker you could have joint teams with Dover to switch sites as needed to cope with demand. I doubt the Dutch and Belgians would have an issue if it meant more space at their stations. Not sure how the French would take it but I assume they would like the space back at Gare du Nord.

 

[The exile]

That would be extremely logical to be honest, and would save hugely on the staffing costs, even if you upped the number of Border Force staff to get trains through quicker you could have joint teams with Dover to switch sites as needed to cope with demand. I doubt the Dutch and Belgians would have an issue if it meant more space at their stations. Not sure how the French would take it but I assume they would like the space back at Gare du Nord.

What’s more, by doing it at Cheriton / Coquelles you’re doing it in a secure area with “reinforcements” on hand if necessary, rather than in a crowded train in the middle of a city. Other than the publicity value, I can’t see that a Eurostar train is any more of a terrorist target than a train going through one of the alpine base tunnels or one of the car-shuttles. Everyone who travels on the London Underground accepts that risk every time they travel - after all, it has been done - with no security checks whatever.

 

[HSTEd]

I think half an hour is extremely optimistic to check 900 people's documents with any reasonable number of personnel.

It would not be enough for anything more than the most cursory of checks, at which point anyone who has any problem whatsoever would have to be pulled off the train and taken elsewhere.
The train would have to leave without them and then the border force would presumably be dumped with the responsibility for their onward travel from Folkestone.

I'd suggest the time used for the Lille shuffle would be more realistic.

 

[TheWierdOne]

I think half an hour is extremely optimistic to check 900 people's documents with any reasonable number of personnel.

It would not be enough for anything more than the most cursory of checks, at which point anyone who has any problem whatsoever would have to be pulled off the train and taken elsewhere.
The train would have to leave without them and then the border force would presumably be dumped with the responsibility for their onward travel from Folkestone.

I'd suggest the time used for the Lille shuffle would be more realistic.

Given that airlines manage to handle a planeload of passengers boarding fairly quickly with 4 or 5 staff, a dozen border control officers (roughly what Gare du Nord has on frontline duties) should be able to work through a train in 30 minutes. Whack the number up to twenty working in teams of two and that's two cars per pair, with one pair as backup to remove any rowdy customers. I'd honestly be more surprised if a well-trained team can't whack through a train in half an hour. As for the French I make no guesses. If juxtaposition is still wanted, then it's a lot cheaper to stick a team on the shuttle in the morning and they do their shifts at the other end and live near the terminals.

 

[The exile]

The train would have to leave without them and then the border force would presumably be dumped with the responsibility for their onward travel from Folkestone.

No - French immigration at Folkestone refuses entry, passenger removed from train and sent back whence they came at their own expense. Vice versa at Coquelles.

 

[HSTEd]

No - French immigration at Folkestone refuses entry, passenger removed from train and sent back whence they came at their own expense. Vice versa at Coquelles.

So now the immigration people are required to make a snap decision in a matter of seconds about whether they will be refused or not?

That will lead to no end of problems for all involved.
The current system either (using the example of travel from Paris to London) causes the person to miss their train from Paris, where they are still at their starting point, or simply delays their leaving the terminal in London.

 

[Trainguy34]

To make it quicker, may need more staff however, would it be possible to have Border Staff going through the train check passports as it goes through the tunnel?

 

[The exile]

So now the immigration people are required to make a snap decision in a matter of seconds about whether they will be refused or not?

That will lead to no end of problems for all involved.
The current system either (using the example of travel from Paris to London) causes the person to miss their train from Paris, where they are still at their starting point, or simply delays their leaving the terminal in London.

Electronic databases should make a “yes” or “perhaps not” pretty instant. If that not on, then French immigration board at St Pancras and so also have the journey time to Folkestone. ISTR the objection to onboard immigration checks was the (perceived) risk of uk controls taking place once the train had left the tunnel and was (in those days) dawdling through Kent.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Electronic databases should make a “yes” or “perhaps not” pretty instant. If that not on, then French immigration board at St Pancras and so also have the journey time to Folkestone. ISTR the objection to onboard immigration checks was the (perceived) risk of uk controls taking place once the train had left the tunnel and was (in those days) dawdling through Kent.

Additionally given that Eurostar now collects passenger information in advance they should be able to stop a lot of people travelling in advance anyway

To make it quicker, may need more staff however, would it be possible to have Border Staff going through the train check passports as it goes through the tunnel?

That might be cutting it a bit fine from a leeway perspective, but the main issue would be that anyone needing to be removed would be dumped at the wrong end. For instance someone flagged as being barred from the UK would only be able to be removed from the train at Folkstone.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

but I'm not sure if this has corresponded to a change in station procedure.

Having done multiple journeys this year both before and after the introduction of API, I can tell you there there is 0 difference at all from the customer's perspective.

 

[timbobean]

Just for reference, random security checks (someone rubs a moist towel around the boot and inside of the car, which is then fed into some machine to analyse it) are done on cars as you go through the Eurotunnel terminals. I have been “done” a few times.
I assume trucks get a more thorough and consistent once over

 

[Austriantrain]

Just for reference, random security checks (someone rubs a moist towel around the boot and inside of the car, which is then fed into some machine to analyse it) are done on cars as you go through the Eurotunnel terminals. I have been “done” a few times.
I assume trucks get a more thorough and consistent once over

Not remotely comparable to a full screening of every passenger and luggage. Risk-based security and random checks could be introduced at E*-Terminals too.

 

[timbobean]

Agreed

 

[StephenHunter]

I think half an hour is extremely optimistic to check 900 people's documents with any reasonable number of personnel.

How does this work at the Schengen Area's other borders though - like Croatia/Serbia? How long do those checks take? Because the Optima Express runs through several border checks during its journey from Austria to Turkey and did even more in the past.

 

[RT4038]

How does this work at the Schengen Area's other borders though - like Croatia/Serbia? How long do those checks take? Because the Optima Express runs through several border checks during its journey from Austria to Turkey and did even more in the past.

There are very few of them (Croatia/Serbia currently nothing) and probably none with 900 pax on them. Sit at the border while the checks are done I expect.

 

[Watershed]

How does this work at the Schengen Area's other borders though - like Croatia/Serbia? How long do those checks take? Because the Optima Express runs through several border checks during its journey from Austria to Turkey and did even more in the past.

There are very few of them (Croatia/Serbia currently nothing) and probably none with 900 pax on them. Sit at the border while the checks are done I expect.

The checks are done at the 'border station' for each country (e.g. exit checks from Bulgaria at Svilengrad, entry checks for Turkey at Kapikule) and typically take around an hour. That being said, there's a loco and/or traincrew change involved at many of those stations, and things are done in a rather relaxed manner so it's not exactly a close comparator.

 

[DanNCL]

I don’t think there’s any comparable example to what would be needed for Eurostar anywhere else. The closest would have been the Pendolinos that linked Helsinki and St Petersburg before Feb 2022. Everything left in Europe has a loco change at one side of the border.

Ukraine can get the checks done in as little as half an hour at Chop according to some of the schedules. But granted, these will be short trains and none going any further into Ukraine than Mukachevo.
The Wien-Kyiv through cars if I recall correctly have the Ukrainian border check done at the same time as the bogie swap.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I don’t think there’s any comparable example to what would be needed for Eurostar anywhere else. The closest would have been the Pendolinos that linked Helsinki and St Petersburg before Feb 2022. Everything left in Europe has a loco change at one side of the border.

Ukraine can get the checks done in as little as half an hour at Chop according to some of the schedules. But granted, these will be short trains and none going any further into Ukraine than Mukachevo.
The Wien-Kyiv through cars if I recall correctly have the Ukrainian border check done at the same time as the bogie swap.

In the good old days of through trains linking all three of the Baltic states with Poland, the trains from Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania went through a little corner of Belarus en route to Poland, and there were border checks done at Grodno, just before leaving Belarus - which is where the gauge change happened too. The combined process could take hours!

 

[zero]

Before Croatia joined Schengen, the train would stop at the SLO/HR border station and each set of border agents would go through the train separately - about 10 minutes apart and the whole thing generally took under 30 minutes as I recall.

On the MK/AL border the bus driver collected everyone's passport after leaving MK and we reboarded the bus, the driver then took the stack to the AL border agent's hut, came back 5 minutes later and we were off. If there is ever a train going this way and they are similarly lax it could be done very quickly too.

 

[SynthD]

An additional issue with opening new border posts on the continent is that the Germans aren’t (or weren’t) keen on the idea of UK Border Force staff operating in German soil.

For those countries who aren’t interested in the full operation of juxtaposed controls (ie German staff in St P), what do they gain from British staff and platform demands in their stations?

Can a future Trilateral agreement be with the EU on behalf of Schengen countries, or will it always need to be the individual countries?

 

[Peterthegreat]

For those countries who aren’t interested in the full operation of juxtaposed controls (ie German staff in St P), what do they gain from British staff and platform demands in their stations?

Can a future Trilateral agreement be with the EU on behalf of Schengen countries, or will it always need to be the individual countries?

German staff would not be required in St Pancras. Schengen controls are done by French staff.