Key Smartcard and ticket acceptance on TfL

[Dima]

Hello,

I have recently bought a point-to-point season ticket on a Key Smartcard for a Thameslink route fully within London, which I use to commute (as it is significantly cheaper than a travelcard for the zones I need).

Sometimes, in case of disruptions I see that Thameslink organises ticket acceptance on London buses and the tube. How would it work in my case? Will I be able to use my Key Smartcard on the tube and buses or will I need to pay by other means and then somehow claim compensation from Thameslink?

Thanks,
Dima

 

[hkstudent]

Hello,

I have recently bought a point-to-point season ticket on a Key Smartcard for a Thameslink route fully within London, which I use to commute (as it is significantly cheaper than a travelcard for the zones I need).

Sometimes, in case of disruptions I see that Thameslink organises ticket acceptance on London buses and the tube. How would it work in my case? Will I be able to use my Key Smartcard on the tube and buses or will I need to pay by other means and then somehow claim compensation from Thameslink?

Thanks,
Dima

The smartcard will not be able to open the barriers as not having travelcard element. You would require a wave through by staff after talking with them.
Worst case scenario, travel and then claim GTR or TfL for the refund.

 

[Dima]

Going to test the process today following this morning disruption as I had to take an alternative route and pay with Oyster

 

[Dima]

I actually asked Thameslink this question and got the following reply

Thank you for getting in touch regarding your planned journeys within London during the planned industrial action.

Transport for London will accept PAPER rail tickets(singles, returns or season tickets), for reasonable journeys on their bus, Tube, tram or DLR services. They won’t accept any eTickets or any other ticket on a Key Smartcard that isn’t a Travelcard ticket, however, the situation on the day, may see ticket acceptance agreed by alternative companies but this will be at their discretion.

And they refused to compensate me for the Oyster fare that I had to pay.

Not nice. Definitely a factor to consider when choosing between a paper and a Smartcard season ticket.

 

[Hadders]

This really isn't acceptable. I would log a complaint about the situation with London Travelwatch and see what they have to say about it.

 

[hkstudent]

This really isn't acceptable. I would log a complaint about the situation with London Travelwatch and see what they have to say about it.

Indeed.
And it's shocking that with technological advance on ticket media, the acceptance during disruption is being make difficult as TfL (not at their fault as they normally don't have to accept them as it's not on their services) don't have means to verify ITSO tickets or E tickets.

 

[Dima]

Yeah, I am thinking about complaining about it further. Is it Rail Ombudsman or London TravelWatch who should deal with it?

How time consuming is this procedure? Is it just about filing a complaint online and getting a decision some weeks later, or will it involve attending any meeting, lengthy phone calls etc (for which I won’t have time for the amount I am claiming).

I guess I should also request Thameslink to give me a copy of our correspondence as the original complaint was filed through their website and I don’t have a copy of it.

 

[hkstudent]

Yeah, I am thinking about complaining about it further. Is it Rail Ombudsman or London TravelWatch who should deal with it?

How time consuming is this procedure? Is it just about filing a complaint online and getting a decision some weeks later, or will it involve attending any meeting, lengthy phone calls etc (for which I won’t have time for the amount I am claiming).

I guess I should also request Thameslink to give me a copy of our correspondence as the original complaint was filed through their website and I don’t have a copy of it.

That's within the remit of London Travelwatch and think you have better chance in getting a positive result.
Also, considering complain to a London Assembly member or a MP.

 

[Haywain]

TfL don't have means to verify ITSO tickets or E tickets.

Sadly, they don't have the willingness either.

 

[hkstudent]

Sadly, they don't have the willingness either.

Unless DfT pay them. It's about money.

 

[Haywain]

Unless DfT pay them. It's about money.

If you say so. But I understand that where they have been provided with equipment to read eTickets it has been mired in disputes about how much training is required, who should be using it and where it should be kept. London Underground is very heavily unionised and the management don't have the will to sort out issues like this - far easier to point the finger elsewhere.

 

[Wallsendmag]

We are working with Tfl to give them equipment to allow them to read Smartcards so they can be accepted during disruption.

 

[bubieyehyeh]

Can I ask if London Overground can read ITSO cards?

The last part of my usual journey involves travel between clapham junction (CLJ) and Shepherds Bush (SPB).

GTR have told me in the past if I buy a day ticket (not travelcard) on the Key smartcard at the ticket machine, I can use both Southern and Overground trains between CLJ and SPB.

I've continued to buy paper tickets, since I was wondering if I use a key ticket would I have hassle if London Overground can't read my ITSO/key ticket.

However if I use Keygo (which means I don't need to queue for a ticket machine) on my key smartcard I can only use the (much less frequent) Southern trains between CLJ and SPB.

If they can read ITSO cards is there any chance they might upgrade there devices to accept keygo, so they can see the temporary ticket that is added when you tap in with keygo, which I can see with an android phone app.

Of course if GTR allowed e-tickets on the route or allowed you to buy day ticket for thekey online and collect at the station (which I sure was possible previously) I could avoid the hassle of using ticket machines and their barely working touch screens.

 

[hkstudent]

Can I ask if London Overground can read ITSO cards?

The last part of my usual journey involves travel between clapham junction (CLJ) and Shepherds Bush (SPB).

GTR have told me in the past if I buy a day ticket (not travelcard) on the Key smartcard at the ticket machine, I can use both Southern and Overground trains between CLJ and SPB.

I've continued to buy paper tickets, since I was wondering if I use a key ticket would I have hassle if London Overground can't read my ITSO/key ticket.

However if I use Keygo (which means I don't need to queue for a ticket machine) on my key smartcard I can only use the (much less frequent) Southern trains between CLJ and SPB.

If they can read ITSO cards is there any chance they might upgrade there devices to accept keygo, so they can see the temporary ticket that is added when you tap in with keygo, which I can see with an android phone app.

Of course if GTR allowed e-tickets on the route or allowed you to buy day ticket for thekey online and collect at the station (which I sure was possible previously) I could avoid the hassle of using ticket machines and their barely working touch screens.

KeyGo is only implemented on GTR services for revenue allocation, so it would be rather difficult. Though I am not sure if TfL revenue officers have ITSO reader to inspect TOC smartcards.
TfL barriers are capable in reading ITSO tickets, so surpassingly there shouldn't be problem allowing you to go through.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The difference between the Key and Key Go is the fact that you don't have a ticket loaded on Key Go so it doesn't matter if TfL can read it or not theres no ticket to read. Obviously all TfL modes of transport can read ITSO.

 

[skyhigh]

We are working with Tfl to give them equipment to allow them to read Smartcards so they can be accepted during disruption.

May I ask who 'we' is in this case? I'm presuming not LNER.

 

[Wallsendmag]

May I ask who 'we' is in this case? I'm presuming not LNER.

The cross industry Smart Ticketing group that I attend.

 

[skyhigh]

The cross industry Smart Ticketing group that I attend.

Thank you!

 

[bubieyehyeh]

With Keygo, yes there is no ticket, but I can see on a app it adds a "transient ticket" to ITSO card when you tap-in, so was wondering why overground inspectors could not check for that, like they can check an oyster has tapped in, so that keygo can be supported on the overground.

 

[Wallsendmag]

With Keygo, yes there is no ticket, but I can see on a app it adds a "transient ticket" to ITSO card when you tap-in, so was wondering why overground inspectors could not check for that, like they can check an oyster has tapped in, so that keygo can be supported on the overground.

Becasuse Key Go is a GoAhead system, is it being replaced by the industry solution ?

 

[Haywain]

Becasuse Key Go is a GoAhead system, is it being replaced by the industry solution ?

As it already covers a wider area (on GTR services) than Project Oval, let's hope not.

 

[RPI]

We are working with Tfl to give them equipment to allow them to read Smartcards so they can be accepted during disruption.

We've just been issued with RID 2 from TfL (Revenue Inspection Device, these are used by TOC'S to verify Cpay cards in the Cpay area) and these are capable of reading ITSO according to the training we received on them from TfL. Admittedly the information that is displayed isn't as detailed but still capable of reading National Rail ITSO cards.
Now I haven't tried this yet other than when we were training as our own devices are obviously better, but TfL should be able to read ITSO cards.
The RPI'S on the Elizabeth line for example have to be able to verify these cards.

 

[mattdickinson]

Becasuse Key Go is a GoAhead system, is it being replaced by the industry solution ?

KeyGo (and SWR's Tap2Go) are implementations of the industry solution (ITSO TYP24)

 

[Watershed]

We've just been issued with RID 2 from TfL (Revenue Inspection Device, these are used by TOC'S to verify Cpay cards in the Cpay area) and these are capable of reading ITSO according to the training we received on them from TfL. Admittedly the information that is displayed isn't as detailed but still capable of reading National Rail ITSO cards.
Now I haven't tried this yet other than when we were training as our own devices are obviously better, but TfL should be able to read ITSO cards.
The RPI'S on the Elizabeth line for example have to be able to verify these cards.

Even the RID 2 still can't verify that contactless cards are touched in though.

 

[Wallsendmag]

KeyGo (and SWR's Tap2Go) are implementations of the industry solution (ITSO TYP24)

Yes and no there is another industry solution being worked on that isn't KeyGo or Tap2Go

 

[MikeWh]

Even the RID 2 still can't verify that contactless cards are touched in though.

They never will be able to, unless it can be guaranteed that every touch is immediately available to every RID. You absolutely will never be able to write to a contactless card.

 

[RPI]

Even the RID 2 still can't verify that contactless cards are touched in though.

No, which is annoying, but at least it basically acts as a "tap" when checked, until RID 2 was issued only London/Reading based revenue staff (on GWR) had RID'S and it became quite frustrating when between Reading and London people waving cards that I couldn't do anything with.

Now RID'S have been issued to other depots further afield that go to London so Cpay checks will become far more regular on that stretch of line.

From what I gather, if a card is checked on a RID that hasn't been tapped in 3 times, then it is blocked? Already in the relatively short time that we have had these at our depot we have had cause to have several conversations with people that the card has "failed".

 

[hkstudent]

We've just been issued with RID 2 from TfL (Revenue Inspection Device, these are used by TOC'S to verify Cpay cards in the Cpay area) and these are capable of reading ITSO according to the training we received on them from TfL. Admittedly the information that is displayed isn't as detailed but still capable of reading National Rail ITSO cards.
Now I haven't tried this yet other than when we were training as our own devices are obviously better, but TfL should be able to read ITSO cards.
The RPI'S on the Elizabeth line for example have to be able to verify these cards.

Though something to point out is: RPIs on Elizabeth Line, London Overground, London Underground and DLR are all separate.
So that doesn't mean that LO staff are also capable in verifying ITSOs.

 

[RPI]

Though something to point out is: RPIs on Elizabeth Line, London Overground, London Underground and DLR are all separate.
So that doesn't mean that LO staff are also capable in verifying ITSOs.

Agreed, but the RID 2 is, as far as I'm aware, issued to all TfL staff that check tickets etc.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Agreed, but the RID 2 is, as far as I'm aware, issued to all TfL staff that check tickets etc.

Soon coming to most TOC staff that check tickets in the SE as well