Key Smartcard via Farringdon

[DavidT]

Please can I get views on the correct fare for the following journey:

Stevenage to Farringdon departing 8.30am on a weekday.

Returning Moorgate to Knebworth in the evening of the same day.

Using Great Northern Key Smartcard

I had expected this to charge as a anytime day return from Stevenage to Farringdon (£29.60) but on the Key Smartcard it has instead charged as two singles (£19.40 + £14.50 = £33.90).

 

[CyrusWuff]

I think it could be one of two things:

keyGo can only charge for what you actually did, rather than what you could have done.

Alternatively it's because you can't use a London Terminals ticket to get to Farringdon (it either has to be explicitly Farringdon or include LU Zone 1 validity) but you can use a London Terminals ticket from Moorgate.

 

[MrJeeves]

There is no way that stopping at Moorgate (either starting short of the origin or ending short of the origin) can match with an onward journey to/from Farringdon. All tickets to Farringdon from Stevenage are routed "NOT UNDERGROUND" meaning that they aren't valid on the tube between Moorgate and Farringdon.

The only time these tickets would be valid is late at night where the "Tube" link between the two stations becomes a "Transfer at your own expense" one. Outside of these times, there is no permitted way to get between Moorgate and Farringdon on a ticket from Stevenage to Farringdon.

If normal tickets to Farringdon have been allowing you to enter/exit at Moorgate, then that's because the barriers are set up wrongly.

 

[Haywain]

Please can I get views on the correct fare for the following journey:

Stevenage to Farringdon departing 8.30am on a weekday.

Returning Moorgate to Knebworth in the evening of the same day.

Using Great Northern Key Smartcard

I had expected this to charge as a anytime day return from Stevenage to Farringdon (£29.60) but on the Key Smartcard it has instead charged as two singles (£19.40 + £14.50 = £33.90).

I'm afraid that the charge is correct. As KeyGo isn't valid on London Underground it cannot charge you a fare to Zone U1 which is what you would need to be valid for a return from Moorgate after travelling outward to Farringdon.

The only time these tickets would be valid is late at night where the "Tube" link between the two stations becomes a "Transfer at your own expense" one. Outside of these times, there is no permitted way to get between Moorgate and Farringdon on a ticket from Stevenage to Farringdon.

KeyGo would not charge it as a return ticket at any time of day.

 

[MrJeeves]

As KeyGo isn't valid on London Underground it cannot charge you a fare to Zone U1

keyGo isn't valid on LNER but if you use it on LNER it'll know and refuse to charge the cheaper GTR-only fares, so I don't think that's particularly fair.

 

[Haywain]

keyGo isn't valid on LNER but if you use it on LNER it'll know and refuse to charge the cheaper GTR-only fares, so I don't think that's particularly fair.

I don't see what LNER has to do with the case under discussion.

 

[mattdickinson]

keyGo isn't valid on LNER but if you use it on LNER it'll know and refuse to charge the cheaper GTR-only fares, so I don't think that's particularly fair.

How does it know? LNER & GTR share gatelines at both Kings Cross & Stevenage.

 

[MrJeeves]

How does it know? LNER & GTR share gatelines at both Kings Cross & Stevenage.

In this case, touch times and journey duration is how it makes its guess.

 

[Watershed]

There is no way that stopping at Moorgate (either starting short of the origin or ending short of the origin) can match with an onward journey to/from Farringdon. All tickets to Farringdon from Stevenage are routed "NOT UNDERGROUND" meaning that they aren't valid on the tube between Moorgate and Farringdon.

The only time these tickets would be valid is late at night where the "Tube" link between the two stations becomes a "Transfer at your own expense" one. Outside of these times, there is no permitted way to get between Moorgate and Farringdon on a ticket from Stevenage to Farringdon.

If normal tickets to Farringdon have been allowing you to enter/exit at Moorgate, then that's because the barriers are set up wrongly.

Arguably a Farringdon ticket would be valid from Moorgate on the basis that you could use the Elizabeth line to transfer between the two stations (this would comply with the 'not Underground' restriction). However I'll be the first to admit that is a slightly questionable route, as you are reliant on the '3 mile' rule and there may be a negative easement that prohibits it; even if there isn't, the data says that the Liz line station east of Farringdon is Liverpool Street, and doesn't recognise the fact that it's also connected to Moorgate.

In any event it's somewhat of a moot point as KeyGo isn't valid on the Elizabeth line, so I don't think you could expect it to charge on the basis of a journey you couldn't have completed infull. So I think the KeyGo chargew was probably correct in this instance.

 

[Hadders]

Stevenage to London Terminals is valid to Moorgate via a change at Finsbury Park and the Northern City Line or by changing to the Underground at Kings Cross St Pancras. Officially, it’s not valid via a change at Farringdon to the Underground.

Stevenage (or Knebworth) to London Thameslink is valid to Farringdon but it is not valid via any route to Moorgate.

Consequently, changing two single fares is correct (although rather farcical situation to be honest).

I seem to get lots of issues using KeyGo. I have successfully used it on LNER between Stevenage and Kings Cross (I’m not sure they can apply an operator restriction to any Any Permitted fare) but I have a Gold Card discount applied to KeyGo and it wouldn’t give the discount because inexplicably LNER officially don’t accept Gold Card discounted tickets. I queried what I was charged with GTR’s KeyGo help desk and they told me that unlike contactless and Oyster their system calculates what train you’ve likely travelled on based on touch in and touch out times.

 

[etr221]

I seem to get lots of issues using KeyGo. I have successfully used it on LNER between Stevenage and Kings Cross (I’m not sure they can apply an operator restriction to any Any Permitted fare) but I have a Gold Card discount applied to KeyGo and it wouldn’t give the discount because inexplicably LNER officially don’t accept Gold Card discounted tickets. I queried what I was charged with GTR’s KeyGo help desk and they told me that unlike contactless and Oyster their system calculates what train you’ve likely travelled on based on touch in and touch out times.

Did they say anything about what should happen when the likely train (for which they charge) and the actual train don't match? Or about whether they take account of actual rather than scheduled train times? Without being an expert on GN line timetables, I would have thought actually getting it right all the time must be difficult...

Looking at the publicity, Keygo is a 'GTR only' product (so not valid on LNER trains, so GTR should not be charging you a fare based on you using one). My thinking is that any fare charged via KeyGo is a KeyGo fare (similarly for other PAYG schemes) which may (or may not) match a conventional fare charged for a normal ticket.

But all this comes down to a (ticketing) system being designed on the basis that the (railway) system it used for is simple, and well understood, and that passengers will us it in a straightforward, as expected, manner - neither of which are true... (has anyone tried using KeyGo for a journey from Farringdon to Moorgate? - perfectly valid if you use GTR via Finsbury Park)

 

[Somewhere]

Did they say anything about what should happen when the likely train (for which they charge) and the actual train don't match? Or about whether they take account of actual rather than scheduled train times? Without being an expert on GN line timetables, I would have thought actually getting it right all the time must be difficult...

Looking at the publicity, Keygo is a 'GTR only' product (so not valid on LNER trains, so GTR should not be charging you a fare based on you using one). My thinking is that any fare charged via KeyGo is a KeyGo fare (similarly for other PAYG schemes) which may (or may not) match a conventional fare charged for a normal ticket.

But all this comes down to a (ticketing) system being designed on the basis that the (railway) system it used for is simple, and well understood, and that passengers will us it in a straightforward, as expected, manner - neither of which are true... (has anyone tried using KeyGo for a journey from Farringdon to Moorgate? - perfectly valid if you use GTR via Finsbury Park)

Probably charge you a Zone 1 fare even though its not valid on the Underground!
GTR do seem to make the rules up as they go along

 

[Hadders]

Did they say anything about what should happen when the likely train (for which they charge) and the actual train don't match? Or about whether they take account of actual rather than scheduled train times? Without being an expert on GN line timetables, I would have thought actually getting it right all the time must be difficult...

They did say to contact them if I'd taken a different train to the one they'd assumed I'd travelled on. Generally speaking on the GN side I think it's relatively easy to work out what train soeone's travelled on from Stevenage:

Touch out at STP - clearly voa Thameslink
Touch out at Kings Cross - journey around 40 mins will be a GN stopper
Touch out at Kings Cross - journey time under 30 minutes will be LNER
There will be some edge cases like the non-stop peak extras that operate from Kings Cross. I'll have to give this a try sometime but given my experience with getting KeyGo to work properly is poor I won't hold my breath...

Looking at the publicity, Keygo is a 'GTR only' product (so not valid on LNER trains, so GTR should not be charging you a fare based on you using one). My thinking is that any fare charged via KeyGo is a KeyGo fare (similarly for other PAYG schemes) which may (or may not) match a conventional fare charged for a normal ticket.

GTR might claim it's only valid on their services but I'm not sure if this can be enforced. GTR set the inter-available fares between Stevenage and London and consequently are not allowed to create a 'GTR only' fare. I don't know if a PAYG system changes this, my view is it shouldn't.

I understand contactless will come to Stevenage in Phase 2 which will render KeyGo all but redundant. I seem to remember it being mentioned on here that LNER are involved in Project Oval as far as Stevenage.

 

[Gaelan]

They did say to contact them if I'd taken a different train to the one they'd assumed I'd travelled on. Generally speaking on the GN side I think it's relatively easy to work out what train soeone's travelled on from Stevenage:

Touch out at STP - clearly voa Thameslink
Touch out at Kings Cross - journey around 40 mins will be a GN stopper
Touch out at Kings Cross - journey time under 30 minutes will be LNER
There will be some edge cases like the non-stop peak extras that operate from Kings Cross. I'll have to give this a try sometime but given my experience with getting KeyGo to work properly is poor I won't hold my breath...

I'd hope this is implemented using a journey planner, finding the cheapest itinerary consistent with the tap times.

 

[DavidT]

Thank you all - very helpful. Will remember this for next time!

 

[Haywain]

I understand contactless will come to Stevenage in Phase 2

Don't hold your breath.

which will render KeyGo all but redundant.

For you, perhaps, but it covers a wider area of GTR services than Oval will when it eventually hsppens.

 

[Hadders]

I'd hope this is implemented using a journey planner, finding the cheapest itinerary consistent with the tap times.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. There are no Advance fares between Stevenage and London and although there are cheaper LNER only fares they really should be withdrawn. I'll go as far as saying that I bet most of the LNER only tickets sold get used on GTR trains anyway.

 

[etr221]

They did say to contact them if I'd taken a different train to the one they'd assumed I'd travelled on. Generally speaking on the GN side I think it's relatively easy to work out what train soeone's travelled on from Stevenage:

Touch out at STP - clearly voa Thameslink
Touch out at Kings Cross - journey around 40 mins will be a GN stopper
Touch out at Kings Cross - journey time under 30 minutes will be LNER

What if someone waits 15 minutes for an LNER train? The only way they can work it is to say GTR trains take a minimum of n minutes (allowing for being told to run non-stop to makes up time) - if it's over that, it's GTR, under LNER (and if they take too long, it's GTR

There will be some edge cases like the non-stop peak extras that operate from Kings Cross. I'll have to give this a try sometime but given my experience with getting KeyGo to work properly is poor I won't hold my breath...

Bottom line is that PAYG (as implemented in this country) works on a station to station basis - you're travelling from A to B, the fare is X: doesn't matter which train or which route, you make an assumption and that's it. The only way you do otherwise is by 'marking the card' (however - an OSI, pink oyster reader (only for a lower price!), on train inspection,...) of those travelling otherwise. It's a different paradigm and the railway has to deal with it.

GTR might claim it's only valid on their services but I'm not sure if this can be enforced. GTR set the inter-available fares between Stevenage and London and consequently are not allowed to create a 'GTR only' fare. I don't know if a PAYG system changes this, my view is it shouldn't.

I understand contactless will come to Stevenage in Phase 2 which will render KeyGo all but redundant. I seem to remember it being mentioned on here that LNER are involved in Project Oval as far as Stevenage.

To some extent there's a question over whether it's 'GTR-only' or 'not-LNER', and bearing in mind that it's a different medium, not a different fare.
If LNER are part of the inter-available offering, and Oval PAYG is being mandated on thet bit of the railway, then LNER will have to accept it - which means they get involved, or have to suffer the consequences.

 

[Hadders]

To some extent there's a question over whether it's 'GTR-only' or 'not-LNER', and bearing in mind that it's a different medium, not a different fare.

The medium shouldn't make any difference. My view is GTR cannot set a 'GTR only' or 'not LNER' fare between Stevenage and London.

 

[Gaelan]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. There are no Advance fares between Stevenage and London and although there are cheaper LNER only fares they really should be withdrawn. I'll go as far as saying that I bet most of the LNER only tickets sold get used on GTR trains anyway.

I meant something along the lines of (example using today's timetable):

1. Passenger tapped in at Stevenage at 12:35 and out at Kings Cross at 13:25.
2. Compute possible itineraries for SVG-KGX departing after 12:35 and arriving before 13:25.
3. Find the 12:39 GN (arriving 13:20) and the 13:22 LNER (arriving 13:22).
4. Give the passenger the benefit of the doubt and charge them walk-up fare for the cheapest journey they could have made, ie the LNER fare.

I would give another example here where no LNER train fits the timetable, but that's actually surprisingly difficult; the trains are timed such that any itinerary on GN is likely to result in tap times also consistent with an LNER service.

I'll admit that I hadn't realized before your comment that the LNER fares are cheaper; usually, of course, the faster service would (if anything) attract a premium fare. So this doesn't work particularly well, though I do still think that giving the benefit of the doubt is the only fair solution here

 

[Hadders]

I don't think a PAYG scheme can realistically charge differential fares, unless there's an intermediate touch en-route (eg pink validators in London). A likely scenario, at least towards London, is a late running LNER service that confuses the timings!

 

[jon0844]

If everything becomes GB Rail and individual operators are no more, TOC specific fares won't work anymore.

You might then charge more for designated IC services, but that adds confusion for things like contactless charging and in places like Paddington or Victoria is 'solved' by adjusting fares charged at certain gates on certain platforms. That can't work in most cases and is still somewhat of a bodge.

 

[Haywain]

f LNER are part of the inter-available offering, and

KeyGo is not an inter-available offering.

Oval PAYG is being mandated on thet bit of the railway, then LNER will have to accept it -

Oval is a different matter, with it's own dedicated inter-available fares.

If everything becomes GB Rail and individual operators are no more, TOC specific fares won't work anymore.

Even though such fares pre-date privatisation?

 

[jon0844]

KeyGo is not an inter-available offering.

Oval is a different matter, with it's own dedicated inter-available fares.

Even though such fares pre-date privatisation?

We've been talking of the whole fare structure changing for years and with things like contactless, smart ticketing and fare capping and so on, there are too many issues by keeping the old ways.

This isn't the thread to discuss the pros (and many cons) of such changes.

 

[Haywain]

This isn't the thread to discuss the pros (and many cons) of such changes.

I wasn’t.

 

[jon0844]

I wasn’t.

But I did and didn't want to derail things further.

 

[redreni]

I understand contactless will come to Stevenage in Phase 2 which will render KeyGo all but redundant. I seem to remember it being mentioned on here that LNER are involved in Project Oval as far as Stevenage.

Has Railcard acceptance after Oval stage 2 is implemented been confirmed?

I know I saw it in the specs when they put it out to tender, but the wording was quite vague and did not specify whether all Railcards needed to be catered for.

Since different railcards have different minimum fares and time restrictions, the temptation to interpret the requirement to permit Railcard discounts as meaning only certain Railcards (and certainly no more Railcards than are currently catered for by Oyster) must be fairly great, I would have thought, and there was nothing in the wording of the tender to prevent such an interpretation and every incentive to reduce complexity (at Railcard holders' expense, of course).

 

[Haywain]

Has Railcard acceptance after Oval stage 2 is implemented been confirmed?

I know I saw it in the specs when they put it out to tender, but the wording was quite vague and did not specify whether all Railcards needed to be catered for.

Since different railcards have different minimum fares and time restrictions, the temptation to interpret the requirement to permit Railcard discounts as meaning only certain Railcards (and certainly no more Railcards than are currently catered for by Oyster) must be fairly great, I would have thought, and there was nothing in the wording of the tender to prevent such an interpretation and every incentive to reduce complexity (at Railcard holders' expense, of course).

Until we have phase 2 it really doesn’t matter, and there's no firm timescale for phase 2. In any case, this thread is about KeyGo, not Oval.

 

[redreni]

Until we have phase 2 it really doesn’t matter, and there's no firm timescale for phase 2. In any case, this thread is about KeyGo, not Oval.

Sorry, didn't mean to derail.

Just saying I expect KeyGo (and the other TOC PAYG schemes) will continue to be widely used as long as they offer Railcard discounts not offered by Contactless (a state of affairs that Oval Phase 2 may or may not alter).

 

[Haywain]

Just saying I expect KeyGo (and the other TOC PAYG schemes) will continue to be widely used as long as they offer Railcard discounts not offered by Contactless (a state of affairs that Oval Phase 2 may or may not alter).

Until such time as there is a complete overlap between Oval and KeyGo there is every reason for KeyGo to continue, and I don't see Oval extending to buses in Brighton and Crawley, or along the Coastway lines.