KeyGo on GTR - What does an inspector see?

[blelic]

I was wondering, when travelling on GTR with KeyGo, which of the following can an inspector see when you tap your card against their device on a train:

1. If there is a railcard attached.
2. If you have tapped in or not.
3. Where you tapped in.
4. When you tapped in.
5. Your journey/payment history.

And if they could see numbers 2-4, would a lack of touch in warrant a penalty fare or not, considering this could be very much down to a system error, of which there seem to be a fair few with this system?

Does what they can see depend on whether they are an RPI or just a regular OBS or conductor for example?

Thanks.

 

[OscarH]

2-4 I'm fairly certain is yes, it's stored on the card. 3 you can definitely see - it's in the transient ticket.

1 (for some reason), and I think 5 aren't stored on the card, so it depends if they've got a custom app that gets it from their server or if they just can't check it

If 2-4 are missing I'd say it does, as they're written to the card not the server, so the regular failures to write to the backend aren't relevant

 

[winks]

sorry GTR RPIs …?

Not seen one of those since Southern got rid of all of them a few years back. Can’t speak for the other operators

 

[Haywain]

sorry GTR RPIs …?

Not seen one of those since Southern got rid of all of them a few years back. Can’t speak for the other operators

I've seen several on Thameslink services over the last couple of months, and there are enough of them around for GTR to make regular appearances in the Disputes and Prosecutions forum.

 

[MrJeeves]

I was wondering, when travelling on GTR with KeyGo, which of the following can an inspector see when you tap your card against their device on a train:

1. If there is a railcard attached.
2. If you have tapped in or not.
3. Where you tapped in.
4. When you tapped in.
5. Your journey/payment history.

And if they could see numbers 2-4, would a lack of touch in warrant a penalty fare or not, considering this could be very much down to a system error, of which there seem to be a fair few with this system?

Does what they can see depend on whether they are an RPI or just a regular OBS or conductor for example?

Thanks.

1. Generally no, but if they look up the card number on a separate system, then yes.
2. Yes. The smartcard stores something called a "transient ticket" which tracks where you last tapped in and where you tap out. This only stores the last tap in/out, and a tap in usually removes any previous tap out info, too.
3. Yes, see above.
4. Yes, see above.
5. As per 1, only if they look up the card on a separate system to what is used as part of the standard RPI checks.

And if they could see numbers 2-4, would a lack of touch in warrant a penalty fare or not, considering this could be very much down to a system error, of which there seem to be a fair few with this system?

No, because this tap info is stored on the card as well as on the backend system. Even if the communication between the backend and the readers is faulty, the tap in would still be recorded on the card itself.

You can scan the card yourself with the free Ecebs Smart Ticket Scanner app on iOS and Android to see the transient ticket info. This is all RPIs and OBSes generally see unless they really want to go deep with their checking.

The only time I've had my card looked up was when it wouldn't let me leave a station, but the system was broken that day and the staff member couldn't load my card details! If they wanted to look up these details, they would scan the barcode on the back of the card with their GTR-issued tablets which would show your account and Key info from the backend system.

Does what they can see depend on whether they are an RPI or just a regular OBS or conductor for example?

Both are issued with the relevant kit to check both systems, as far as I am aware, but whether they are trained to use them is another question.

 

[Failed Unit]

I once had a situation when I tapped in at New Southgate. The RPI picked me up at Oakliegh park. They took my word for it that I tapped in. (Could maybe see I had tapped out on inward journey)

They did say that there is often a delay, but it is recorded that the RPI tapped, so if it is seen the card has an RPI tap but the rest of the journey looks odd the company can follow up. However issues with readers are not uncommon so that particular RPI does give the benefit of the doubt.

 

[MrJeeves]

They did say that there is often a delay, but it is recorded that the RPI tapped

I don't believe this is always the case. Some RPIs tend to simply use the free ITSO scanning app on Android/iOS rather than the issued tablets or combined Oyster/Contactless/ITSO scanners. These definitely wouldn't be recorded.

 

[blelic]

You can scan the card yourself with the free Ecebs Smart Ticket Scanner app on iOS and Android to see the transient ticket info. This is all RPIs and OBSes generally see unless they really want to go deep with their checking.

I downloaded this app and made a journey to try it. It correctly showed my tap in and out but did not list a time stamp beside either, both when I checked the card during and after the journey. Might this mean that inspectors would also not see the time stamps? The rest of the information displayed was accurate.

 

[MrJeeves]

I downloaded this app and made a journey to try it. It correctly showed my tap in and out but did not list a time stamp beside either, both when I checked the card during and after the journey. Might this mean that inspectors would also not see the time stamps? The rest of the information displayed was accurate.

I'm not sure. That app does still hide some details by default (some of which you can manually enable in its settings), but, for example, it doesn't list the type of concessionary discount for single/return tickets loaded to it, while the official National Rail Smartcard app does. On the other hand, the official app doesn't show detailed info about transient tickets, etc.

The timestamp of when a transient ticket is modified is very likely stored on the card, but the question is whether it's going to be read and shown to staff or not. I think the timestamps are stored in a different area of the card from the transient ticket data itself, but I'm not too sure.

 

[blelic]

To follow on from this, and as an example of the system’s flaws - why would I have been charged for a London Thameslink ticket if travelling to Victoria? Not complaining, as the Victoria fare is higher, but confused why the system would charge this fare if the tap was registered correctly as it seems to have been! Not the only example I’ve seen of things like this happening either.

 

[MrJeeves]

To follow on from this, and as an example of the system’s flaws - why would I have been charged for a London Thameslink ticket if travelling to Victoria? Not complaining, as the Victoria fare is higher, but confused why the system would charge this fare if the tap was registered correctly as it seems to have been! Not the only example I’ve seen of things like this happening either.

It's just keyGo messing up.

I one was charged about £1.80 for £12 worth of journeys, but I rarely get overcharged.

 

[TRE]

To follow on from this, and as an example of the system’s flaws - why would I have been charged for a London Thameslink ticket if travelling to Victoria? Not complaining, as the Victoria fare is higher, but confused why the system would charge this fare if the tap was registered correctly as it seems to have been! Not the only example I’ve seen of things like this happening either.

You'll usually find issues like this are quirks of the routeing guide. e.g. it may be that there just happens to be a permitted route whereby you can travel up to Victoria, back out and on to a London Thameslink station.

Its an exercise for the reader how that would be possible in this case.

Just pointing out that it's not necessarily a flaw of the KeyGo system, rather it's likely a flaw in the fares.

 

[blelic]

You'll usually find issues like this are quirks of the routeing guide. e.g. it may be that there just happens to be a permitted route whereby you can travel up to Victoria, back out and on to a London Thameslink station.

Its an exercise for the reader how that would be possible in this case.

Just pointing out that it's not necessarily a flaw of the KeyGo system, rather it's likely a flaw in the fares.

If so, using KeyGo to Victoria and then back out from a London Thameslink station I’d a good way to save a few pounds, as I would be very surprised if a London Thameslink ticket to Victoria would likely not be allowed.

 

[plugwash]

You'll usually find issues like this are quirks of the routeing guide. e.g. it may be that there just happens to be a permitted route whereby you can travel up to Victoria, back out and on to a London Thameslink station.

Its an exercise for the reader how that would be possible in this case.

I wonder if it's related to the fact that while the fixed link between Victoria and Blackfriers is "tube" during the day, it's "transfer" in the middle of the night.

E.G. Train to victoria, "transfer" to blackfriers and then train to London bridge.

 

[TRE]

It's definitely a fun one. Now I wouldn't like to be the person arguing for this break of journey at London Victoria with a paper ticket. But if NRE says you can do it, then you can do it.

Also agreed, I suspect KeyGo would only find this if you were to return from a London Thameslink station.