KeyGo - smart tap/go ticketing

[planetf1]

I have a KeyGo smart card from Thameslink which I find useful for the following kinds of journeys
- plusBus in Brighton (my origin) + return to other thameslink stations especially central London, as I can use on bus directly without getting a ticket first
- journeys where my return station isn’t definite ie portslade, brighton etc
- when I just want to catch a train quickly.

Maybe not always the cheapest, but very valuable as it’s all tap and go.

Yesterday I travelled by Bus in brighton, then a return to London Bridge.

I noticed I’d been charged very little, then saw my journey history was incomplete
- morning bus journeys (2) recorded ok
- no tap-in at Brighton
- no tap-out at LBR
- tap in at LBR for return was recorded
- no tap out at Brighton
- no return bus recorded

My journey finished ~2245

This surprised me, since I
- went through automated barriers each time
- checked for confirmation/no error code

Can I presume updates from later in the day are just delayed and will reconcile tomorrow?
Or is the system quite flaky?

I will of course contact TL to correct the journey recorded if it doesn’t itself in a day or two.

On keygo more generally
- wish it could be used on TFL as a travelcard
- wish it worked further afield such as SWR - guildford, southampton, reading

 

[pepperpot80]

Can I presume updates from later in the day are just delayed and will reconcile tomorrow?
Or is the system quite flaky?

I will of course contact TL to correct the journey recorded if it doesn’t itself in a day or two.

On keygo more generally
- wish it could be used on TFL as a travelcard
- wish it worked further afield such as SWR - guildford, southampton, reading

System itself might take a day or two to update every now and then - but should get there. Several different things have to talk to one another to get keyGo working and if any of the links have dropped, or are being maintained this weekend, then this leads to the delay. If it doesn't I wouldn't panic about it, call it a win and travel again soon!

keyGo is pretty bloody brilliant at what it does, obviously a real shame it can't be used for TfL (TfL's own capping is pretty bloody rubbish IMHO), and it's a shame it's been held back on rail nationally in general, is all I'll say.

 

[Adsy125]

keyGo is pretty bloody brilliant at what it does, obviously a real shame it can't be used for TfL (TfL's own capping is pretty bloody rubbish IMHO), and it's a shame it's been held back on rail nationally in general, is all I'll say.

Is it the same tech running SWR's Tap2Go?

 

[Watershed]

Is it the same tech running SWR's Tap2Go?

I'm almost certain it is. The maximum journey time (a rather oddly specific 4h36m) is the same for both systems. That of course begs the question why they aren't interoperable...

 

[planetf1]

So my journeys mostly resolved overnight, picking up my evening return to Brighton, and evening bus journey. Still no tap in OR tap out for the journey in to london.

Fare-wise we’re only £0.05 out now (single vs return), and no incomplete journey shown. I’m intrigued to see if the other journey finally makes it!

It begs the question as to how any enforcement is done whilst travelling - I guess the tap in/out must be stored on card?

Also I note the emails and website relating to incomplete journeys very much imply it’s YOUR FAULT, when clearly that is often NOT the case. Slightly irksome.

A bit like the national rail enquiries app which always says I am offline/my connection is bad when, NOPE, I am good thanks, it’s your service that’s not working.

A bit of blame shifting going on there which seems a bit passé….

That all being said, agree it’s a great start/local system.

On smart cards generally, I do wish all journeys were available for them - and collectible at ticket office/stations/app-loadable…

If one does have a journey ticket, is keygo then smart enough to augment the pre purchased ticket with PAYG (in appropriate area). I think it already does this with seasons.. but this could be all tickets? And if only the key could store a travelcard.. I assume it can’t.. Can wish… Ultimately bank contactless/apple pay linkage is going to be easiest, but the concept of tap in/out is fantastic.

As an aside I was in Belfast two weeks ago. Contactless tap in/out on the buses with daily cap. Great. Used it for my journey into the city. Then switched to one of their ‘glider’ bus services where you tap before boarding. BEEP! Why? Fortunately ticket officer near me explained contactless tap in/out doesn’t work on that service. Duh! So then had to buy an m-ticket (or could have done contactless payment for paper ticket) instead, wasting my initial journey. Nearly there…!

 

[E759]

GTR KeyGo journeys at the weekend don't, as you've found, always appear/complete next day. I've had some not appearing until Tuesday.

Another thing that can happen is that you try to resolve an incomplete journey and you get an error. That's a sign that the system knows you've tapped but has yet to calculate your fare. This appears to me to be in situations where gates are are left open, but active for taps, late at night.

Both undocumented features of the system.

These days I leave checking of weekend journeys until Tuesday. I've never had a problem get an incomplete journey completed via the contact form. And of course there isn't a dedicated KeyGo contact form and there are no instructions so you are left to guess how to do it!

Still use the product though as (i) it can be convenient and (ii) it's quite fun seeing it miscalculate simple journeys and getting refunded LOL!

 

[pepperpot80]

It begs the question as to how any enforcement is done whilst travelling - I guess the tap in/out must be stored on card?

Also I note the emails and website relating to incomplete journeys very much imply it’s YOUR FAULT, when clearly that is often NOT the case. Slightly irksome.

A bit like the national rail enquiries app which always says I am offline/my connection is bad when, NOPE, I am good thanks, it’s your service that’s not working.

A bit of blame shifting going on there which seems a bit passé….

100% AGREE! God forbid you would be an actual paying customer... another classic example of the railway choosing to treat it's fare-paying passengers as a complete inconvenience.

This is indicative of a world where the people operating the railway are not beholden to the people using it.

Anyway, in terms of enforcement, as someone mentioned on the other thread, the card does keep a record of your last tap, though this can't on it's own be used for enforcement, and in practice the system will automatically charged you a maximum fare if you try to 'cheat' it. So most revenue protection staff will likely see the keyGo on your card and move on. Arguably this makes sense given all the hoops you have to jump through to be a keyGo user, and the direct access the railway has to charge you that maximum fare.

 

[OscarH]

GTR KeyGo journeys at the weekend don't, as you've found, always appear/complete next day. I've had some not appearing until Tuesday.

Not just weekends, I've had it miss taps on weekdays a good few times. Angmering and Littlehampton seem particularly bad for it in my experience (maybe its a standalone reader thing?)

 

[planetf1]

Not just weekends, I've had it miss taps on weekdays a good few times. Angmering and Littlehampton seem particularly bad for it in my experience (maybe its a standalone reader thing?)

Or in my case small stations like Brighton and London Bridge - my morning journey didn't register at all!! Full-on functioning gatelines

So as an update on my saturday journey -by tuesday still no complete, but I checked today, 8 days later, and now all the details are correct and up to date, and my total charges (3 transactions) add up to the correct amount — so we got there. But there were definately notable delays!

Still a great product I wish was more broadly available! - for example I need to go brighton->reading next week. That will have to be paper most likely. e-ticket would be ok, except no plusbus.. (if I decide to start with bus) and that has to be picked up beforehand… Grrrr!

 

[MrJeeves]

So my journeys mostly resolved overnight, picking up my evening return to Brighton, and evening bus journey. Still no tap in OR tap out for the journey in to london.

Fare-wise we’re only £0.05 out now (single vs return), and no incomplete journey shown. I’m intrigued to see if the other journey finally makes it!

I think we might have taken a similar train journey. I made a tap in at Brighton and out at Burgess Hill on the 12th and neither were recorded on my account.

I was charged the single fare, but this actually resulted in me paying more because it meant I couldn't file a delay reply claim.

Calling the key team was something I couldn't be bothered to do, so I left it.

It begs the question as to how any enforcement is done whilst travelling - I guess the tap in/out must be stored on card?

That's correct. keyGo is added as a "period pass" lasting something like 10 years from when it's added, with no from or to points stored with it.

When you tap in or out, whether with keyGo or not, the reader adds what's called a "transient ticket" to the card, with the station you touched in/out at, and the time and date.

Revenue protection officers and guards check for this transient ticket whenever they check an ITSO on GTR. The idea is that the gateline will only record a transient ticket if someone has touched in "validly", so they do not need to check individual tickets on the card.

This does often also mean they don't register if you're using a TL only ticket or similar, meaning you're much less likely to be (incorrectly -- this is another matter though) issued a PF for using TL only on another GTR service. It's something I do very regularly with TL only London Travelcards.

Also I note the emails and website relating to incomplete journeys very much imply it’s YOUR FAULT, when clearly that is often NOT the case. Slightly irksome.

Funnily enough, I never receive incomplete journey alerts to my email, meaning I have to rely on myself checking the website to see any.

I have been told that if the fault is not with you, always choose "Card reader not working", as these flag up to GTR as a potential issue.

If one does have a journey ticket, is keygo then smart enough to augment the pre purchased ticket with PAYG (in appropriate area). I think it already does this with seasons.. but this could be all tickets? And if only the key could store a travelcard.. I assume it can’t.. Can wish…

As I've mentioned, they can definitely store Travelcards! You have to buy them at a ticket machines, though. I can confirm it is also smart enough to only buy extensions of loaded tickets on the smartcard, for both single/returns and season tickets.

You may always find it interesting to read up on the key. Wikipedia article, which was mainly written by me when I was very bored: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Key_(smartcard)

Still a great product I wish was more broadly available! - for example I need to go brighton->reading next week.

On another note, GWR are trialling PAYG on their Touch ITSO smartcard, too! It's valid on all XC, TfW and GWR routes within the PAYG area, too

I wonder if it's only a matter of time before keyGo also works on more GWR services, too, and vice versa.

GWR pay-as-you-go | Contactless train travel | Great Western Railway

Tap in and out with a GWR pay-as-you-go touch smartcard and leave paper tickets behind.

www.gwr.com

 

[plugwash]

I'm almost certain it is. The maximum journey time (a rather oddly specific 4h36m) is the same for both systems. That of course begs the question why they aren't interoperable...

The larger you make a PAYG schene the more potential there is for ambiguity there is on what routes were taken. Having it apply to multiple operators also means you need to devise a scheme for distributing the revenue among those operators.

 

[paul1609]

The larger you make a PAYG schene the more potential there is for ambiguity there is on what routes were taken. Having it apply to multiple operators also means you need to devise a scheme for distributing the revenue among those operators.

But Keygo for instance is based on tickets where there is already Orcats to split the revenue so surely you only have to add in the smartcard takings?

 

[MrJeeves]

The larger you make a PAYG schene the more potential there is for ambiguity there is on what routes were taken.

There is already significant ambiguity with keyGo.

I have made multiple journeys so far which are not permitted routes for the tickets it has proceeded to charge me for.

For example, I've traveled from Burgess Hill to Brighton, met someone past the gateline, then traveled back up to Haywards Heath, only being charged for Burgess Hill to Haywards Heath.

As we've discussed in the past, nothing appears to prevent this within the keyGo terms!

 

[planetf1]

@MrJeeves thanks - one clarification on my travel card case : a) The thameslink super off peak travel card is not available via tvm or office it seems b) specifically having keygo dynamically add a travel card, as it does for pluses, would be amazing ...

 

[MrJeeves]

The thameslink super off peak travel card is not available via tvm or office it seems

Yeah, it's listed on the ticketing database that it can only be issued by the WebTIS (web ticket issuing system).

Lots of people have discussed it in the past and never come to a conclusion, but I think these Super Off-peak travelcards can be issued by keyGo and keyGo only.

keyGo can dynamically add TC's (anytime/off/super off) as a capping system for keyGo-capable journeys within 1-6.

 

[planetf1]

Apologies I'm not familiar with all the terminology - but WebTIS would be used when purchasing from many details/TOCs online?
I had wondered if I could buy a travel card online, and then load it onto the key smart card via phone (iOS) but not found any specific way to do that yet?

The reference to KeyGo/travelcard - I do understand that keygo works with the zone 1-6 capping, but only on the services on the map linked to from https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/tickets/the-key-smartcard/keygo - I was mentally thinking of it in terms of a weekend trip to London (including bus from home to Brighton central - that bit works!) , get on a random London bus, then a tube then head home on the train

 

[MrJeeves]

Apologies I'm not familiar with all the terminology - but WebTIS would be used when purchasing from many details/TOCs online?
I had wondered if I could buy a travel card online, and then load it onto the key smart card via phone (iOS) but not found any specific way to do that yet?

Yep, spot on, but the online ticketing system doesn't offer Key tickets for anything except seasons, I believe.

keyGo uses the WebTIS behind the scenes, hence why a "SMART" fare appears on brfares for Super Off-peak Travelcards.

keyGo does get the taps for TfL stations, so I would guess it's a TfL thing preventing GTR from doing it, combined with the gatelines not being set up to recognise the keyGo continuous transit authority on the card, and possibly not being able to block it in case of missed payments.

 

[miklcct]

This does often also mean they don't register if you're using a TL only ticket or similar, meaning you're much less likely to be (incorrectly -- this is another matter though) issued a PF for using TL only on another GTR service. It's something I do very regularly with TL only London Travelcards.

Does that mean if your smartcard is KeyGo-enabled, as long as you touch in correctly within the maximum journey time, your card is valid for travel within the KeyGo zone regardless if there are any tickets stored in it?

 

[E759]

Does that mean if your smartcard is KeyGo-enabled, as long as you touch in correctly within the maximum journey time, your card is valid for travel within the KeyGo zone regardless if there are any tickets stored in it?

I have no tickets on my Key smartcard just KeyGo and yes it is valid for travel within the KeyGo zone. As alluded to in other posts this opens up many interesting possibilities (as you only need one entry tap to have a valid "ticket").

Never thought about maximum journey times as I travel from outside Zone 6 so will always be charged an Outboundary Day Travelcard Z1-6 (including the Super where that is the appropriate lowest fare). What advantage were you thinking of over contactless/Oyster given the massive restriction in the Zones of only being valid on GTR services?

 

[paul1609]

I have keygo but also often purchase an outboundary travelcard on it from TVM as its easier to tap in at tube stations etc. I always get charged the expected rate including auto delay repay. The delay repay is very fast often getting approval within an hourand payment in my bank account the next day.

 

[Watershed]

I have no tickets on my Key smartcard just KeyGo and yes it is valid for travel within the KeyGo zone. As alluded to in other posts this opens up many interesting possibilities (as you only need one entry tap to have a valid "ticket").

Never thought about maximum journey times as I travel from outside Zone 6 so will always be charged an Outboundary Day Travelcard Z1-6 (including the Super where that is the appropriate lowest fare). What advantage were you thinking of over contactless/Oyster given the massive restriction in the Zones of only being valid on GTR services?

The maximum journey time when travelling PAYG on KeyGo is 4 hours and 36 minutes. For most journeys that's far longer than you could possibly ever need.

I suppose the advantage you have is that you don't need to worry about permitted routes, or staying within the Oyster/contactless area of validity. And there could be some circumstances where you won't be charged a more expensive via X fare, for instance, even though you have travelled that way. But you always need to be prepared for the possibility that you are charged the correct fare!

 

[E759]

The maximum journey time when travelling PAYG on KeyGo is 4 hours and 36 minutes. For most journeys that's far longer than you could possibly ever need.

I suppose the advantage you have is that you don't need to worry about permitted routes, or staying within the Oyster/contactless area of validity. And there could be some circumstances where you won't be charged a more expensive via X fare, for instance, even though you have travelled that way. But you always need to be prepared for the possibility that you are charged the correct fare!

Sounds just as niche as exploiting the routing outside the London zones! I do hope there are no track bashers reading these threads.