Khan manifesto: Overground lines to be named - what would you call them?

[LLivery]

Khan has confirmed in his manifesto (pg 35) LO lines will get individual names if (when) he wins the election. He also re-confirms working with the DfT for GN devolution.

TfL’s London Overground network has grown considerably over recent years, and to reflect this I’ll launch a programme to name individual routes, giving each its own identity. Nobody has been more frustrated than me about the delays to the opening of the Elizabeth Line. TfL took full control of the project in 2020 under my oversight, and I’m absolutely committed to working with Crossrail Ltd to open it as soon as possible. I’ll build on the progress we’ve made in the last five years on rail devolution and I am working with the Department for Transport for the Great Northern services from Moorgate to be transferred to TfL. Where other suburban rail services haven’t performed for commuters, and where there may be benefits in TfL taking them on, I’ll explore this with the Government as it reforms the national rail network.

While NLL, ELL, etc., seems obvious, I can imagine many wanting different names. Whether that's Parisian style lettering or LU style names. So how would you identify them?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Ringbahn?

 

[Bletchleyite]

O1, O2 etc, on the German model, of course.

But if they want names, perhaps:

• Watford Junction: Harlequin Line (this was its name under NSE, though does anyone actually know if the shopping centre name or the line name came first?) Allegedly this comes from Harlesden and Queen's Park but could be a backronym.
• Richmond: West Thames Line
• Barking-Gospel Oak: GOBLIN Line (because everyone knows it as that, why reinvent the wheel ) - yes I know it's a bit like "PIN number" but it sounds odd without "line"
• East London Line to get its old name back even as extended
• NLL: this one is quite difficult as it's so long. Perhaps a "Bakerloo" style name - "Stratham Line" rolls quite well off the tongue but maybe possible to confuse with Streatham? "Clapford Line" sort of does but sounds like a nasty disease so maybe not.
• Liverpool St lines: Chingford Line, Enfield Line and Cheshunt Line, why confuse people?

 

[Non Multi]

So labeling very different routes with one name and giving them all just one line colour actually isn't helpful for the travelling public... Gosh! Who would have known?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Stratford to Clapham and Richmond:
North London line

H&I to Crystal Palace and West Croydon:
East London line

Dalston Jnc to New Cross and Clapham:
South London line

Barking to Gospel Oak:
Goblin or North East London line

Liverpool Street to Chingford, Cheshunt and Enfield Town:
Lea Valley lines

Euston to Watford line:
Harlequin line or North West London line

 

[PTR 444]

I would go for the same idea as NorthKent1989 posted above, but with the South London Line amalgamated into the East London Line. I would then propose a separate colour on the tube map for each line as follows:

North London Line: Orange
East London Line: Gold
GOBLIN: Greyish brown
Lea Valley Line: Turquoise
Harlequin Line: Light green
Romford - Upminster shuttle*: Dark purple

*otherwise known as the Emerson Line

 

[LLivery]

They're never going to call the Romford to Upminster "Push & Pull" - So Emerson line?

O1, O2 etc, on the German model, of course.

But if they want names, perhaps:

• Watford Junction: Harlequin Line (this was its name under NSE, though does anyone actually know if the shopping centre name or the line name came first?) Allegedly this comes from Harlesden and Queen's Park but could be a backronym.
• Richmond: West Thames Line
• Barking-Gospel Oak: GOBLIN Line (because everyone knows it as that, why reinvent the wheel ) - yes I know it's a bit like "PIN number" but it sounds odd without "line"
• East London Line to get its old name back even as extended
• NLL: this one is quite difficult as it's so long. Perhaps a "Bakerloo" style name - "Stratham Line" rolls quite well off the tongue but maybe possible to confuse with Streatham? "Clapford Line" sort of does but sounds like a nasty disease so maybe not.
• Liverpool St lines: Chingford Line, Enfield Line and Cheshunt Line, why confuse people?

I'd be happy with numbers too. I'll be disappointed if they go for names and don't go for "Goblin" and "East London Line". I'd rather NLL over anything, but I can see someone wanting to name it after something. Kenwood line after Kenwood House in Hampstead Heath anyone?

So labeling very different routes with one name and giving them all just one line colour actually isn't helpful for the travelling public... Gosh! Who would have known?

Surprising, isn't it?

Ringbahn?

The "Outer Circle Line"

I would go for the same idea as NorthKent1989 posted above, but with the South London Line amalgamated into the East London Line. I would then propose a separate colour on the tube map for each line as follows:

North London Line: Orange

East London Line: Gold

GOBLIN: Greyish brown

Lea Valley Lines: Turquoise

Harlequin Line: Light green

Romford - Upminster shuttle*: Dark purple

*otherwise known as the Emerson Line

I didn't even think of colours. I wonder how that'll work with the tube map?

 

[ainsworth74]

Can we have a manifesto commitment to do something about the state of mapping provided by TfL? Then worry about what everything is going to be called?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can we have a manifesto commitment to do something about the state of mapping provided by TfL? Then worry about what everything is going to be called?

What's wrong with it? It's certainly the best in the country and possibly in the world. Clear and understandable. It does skew some peoples' views of what shape central London is, but bar causing some tourists to use the Tube from Covent Garden to Leicester Square it's hardly a problem.

 

[WideRanger]

Just give each one a letter or a number. And do the Underground lines at the same time.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I

Stratford to Clapham and Richmond:
North London line

H&I to Crystal Palace and West Croydon:
East London line

Dalston Jnc to New Cross and Clapham:
South London line

Barking to Gospel Oak:
Goblin or North East London line

Liverpool Street to Chingford, Cheshunt and Enfield Town:
Lea Valley lines

Euston to Watford line:
Harlequin line or North West London line

Agree we should keep names. Although the romantic in me wants separate names for the West London and South London Lines.

 

[swt_passenger]

I could do without the Goblin personally, although I know it shouldn’t be I always read it as the “Gob line”.

Especially when extended to Barking Riverside, but unfortunately I can’t think of a better name...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I could do without the Goblin personally, although I know it shouldn’t be I always read it as the “Gob line”.

Especially when extended to Barking Riverside, but unfortunately I can’t think of a better name...

"Riverside Line"? OK, it's not for most of its length, but nor is the WCML on the West Coast apart from a couple of hundred metres of it near Lancaster.

 

[swt_passenger]

"Riverside Line"? OK, it's not for most of its length, but nor is the WCML on the West Coast apart from a couple of hundred metres of it near Lancaster.

Riverside would also work if they ever go for a further southward extension, so yeah. (Although there’ll perhaps be calls for Thameslink 3 by then.)

 

[LLivery]

What's wrong with it? It's certainly the best in the country and possibly in the world. Clear and understandable. It does skew some peoples' views of what shape central London is, but bar causing some tourists to use the Tube from Covent Garden to Leicester Square it's hardly a problem.

I picked up a Tube Map the other day - it's appallingly cluttered. SE London looks like a 4 year old drew it. TfL should accept either the size of paper needs to be bigger, or scrap it for the rail & tube map only (that needs a redraw too, preferably with accessibility info).

 

[Aictos]

Just give each one a letter or a number. And do the Underground lines at the same time.

Following the Germanic approach and having the Underground take after the U Bahn with lines called U1, U2, U3 etc and London Overground/TOC Metro take after the S Bahn with lines called S1, S2, S3 etc... Simples

 

[NorthKent1989]

I


Agree we should keep names. Although the romantic in me wants separate names for the West London and South London Lines.

I said that the Dalston to New X/Clapham service could be named as the South London Line

The West London line is a bit harder as it does intersect with the North London line, how about the North & West London line?

 

[75A]

I'm surprised no-one has suggested calling at least one of them 'The Misery Line'

 

[cle]

This is so gimmicky (why it made headlines I guess) - TfL could do this any time.

I'd rather see the long dangled frequency improvements. ELL/WLL/NLL/SLL are obvious, and GOBLIN if they go for it.

The NLL and WLL go to East and South London too. Maybe if Overground is retired as a network name, it could become the line name for the core route to Stratford as it is colloquially. O1 for Richmond, O2 for Clapham.

 

[Mikey C]

The core Orbital services will be called the "Ken" line, seeing that the Overground started under him. They will be coloured Red for Red Ken!

The GOBLIN will be called the "Boris" line, seeing that Electrification of it was authorised under him. It will be coloured Tory Blue

The Watford to Euston line will be called the "Elton" line after the singer

The Liverpool Street services via Seven Sisters will be called the "Spurs" line, and white and blue, while the line via Walthamstow will be called the "East 17" line after the band

I'll let Sadiq have the Romford to Upminster branch

 

[BrianW]

The core Orbital services will be called the "Ken" line, seeing that the Overground started under him. They will be coloured Red for Red Ken!

The GOBLIN will be called the "Boris" line, seeing that Electrification of it was authorised under him. It will be coloured Tory Blue

The Watford to Euston line will be called the "Elton" line after the singer

The Liverpool Street services via Seven Sisters will be called the "Spurs" line, and white and blue, while the line via Walthamstow will be called the "East 17" line after the band

I'll let Sadiq have the Romford to Upminster branch

Excellent Mikey. Perhaps Gold, or Gold and black, or yellow and red for Watford DC line, or a yellow brick colour, sort of buffish ... maybe it will need to change with sponsorship ...

As for Goblin Tory Blue, will that more like Piccadilly Line blue or Victorian values blue- maybe red-white and blue- the Union(ist) Line?

I see that TfL speaks of six lines so I guess there will be multiple termini, eg Stratford- Richmnd/ Clapham Jct; are there these days any trains Watford- Stratford eg, or possible (re)link at Gospel Oak or Highbury??

Maybe time to draw a red line? Or a green one ...?

And should the O2 go to the O2, or Dome or ...?

 

[Wolfie]

Following the Germanic approach and having the Underground take after the U Bahn with lines called U1, U2, U3 etc and London Overground/TOC Metro take after the S Bahn with lines called S1, S2, S3 etc... Simples

Firstly, we don't speak German. Secondly in "BREXIT Britain" the Express and Heil will crucify your damned foreign idea so no chance. Thirdly, and more seriously, you propose that people who know the current system well should be disadvantaged for visitors? You are having an unfunny laugh. Anyone proposing to scrap the current tube line names would lose the mayoral election so easily.....

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Firstly, we don't speak German. Secondly in "BREXIT Britain" the Express and Heil will crucify your damned foreign idea so no chance. Thirdly, and more seriously, you propose that people who know the current system well should be disadvantaged for visitors? You are having an unfunny laugh. Anyone proposing to scrap the current tube line names would lose the mayoral election so easily.....

Not wanting to start a Brexit argument but I agree. Sadly I don't get the fascination with Continental style lettering and numbering for rail lines. Much prefer our twee, English tradition of giving a name to lines.

Lines and lettering are much better for new lines that, to make a sweeping assumption, don't have much character. I think something like the London Underground is so old the name becomes part of the identity for the line.

 

[Paul Jones 88]

I know what name I give the Enfield Town line in times of disruption, however, I don't think that the Mayor would be interested in using that.

 

[Purple Orange]

Name them after significant fictional Londoners from times gone by. The Trotter line, the Twist line etc

 

[Aictos]

Firstly, we don't speak German. Secondly in "BREXIT Britain" the Express and Heil will crucify your damned foreign idea so no chance. Thirdly, and more seriously, you propose that people who know the current system well should be disadvantaged for visitors? You are having an unfunny laugh. Anyone proposing to scrap the current tube line names would lose the mayoral election so easily.....

1. The fact that the UK speaks English as the first language is neither here or there, 2. That's to be expected of right wing toilet paper, 3. What's so difficult about having a line labelled U1 or U2 as the U could just as well stand for UNDERGROUND and 4. Getting rid of line names makes it simple for tourists as they can ask for U4 for example instead of trying to pronounce Bakerloo.

Mind you the UK is so set in it's ways that change even change for the better is detested, I mean renaming the Euston to Watford Junction service to S1 is better then calling it some silly name like the Harlequin line.

 

[whoosh]

Orange is fine for all the Overground lines. Letters or numbers in the style of the New York Subway - which has the same colour for each trunk through Manhatten, would be fine.

Same treatment for the DLR too please!


I agree that the Underground map is now too cluttered, particularly with accessibility identifiers and tram lines, not to mention Thameslink on the pocket version - it's lost it's focus and definitely it's formally pleasing aesthetic looks of yesteryear. TfL are flogging the dead horse of 'heritage', forgetting that Henry C. Beck's map was not only radically changed by Harold F. Hutchison and Paul E. Garbutt, but also by Henry C. Beck himself as well throughout his tenure of drawing the map.

Needs a radical update I'm sorry to say.

 

[Watershed]

What's wrong with it? It's certainly the best in the country and possibly in the world. Clear and understandable. It does skew some peoples' views of what shape central London is, but bar causing some tourists to use the Tube from Covent Garden to Leicester Square it's hardly a problem.

The original Tube map was clear and understandable. But it got out of hand once they started including things that weren't Tube lines (i.e. LUL).

Once you start including National Rail services such as the London Overground, really there isn't a sensible intermediate step to the Rail & Tube map. There are otherwise plenty of journeys that people are misled into thinking require a detour (and if LO deserves being included, then why not Thameslink, at least for the Core?).

I think it would be sensible to just issue two maps, one pocket sized map that focuses on central London (like what you get in the abbreviated maps displayed in Tube carriages, but perhaps with the addition of Thameslink Core) and the other being the full Rail & Tube map.

 

[D365]

I'm surprised no-one has suggested calling at least one of them 'The Misery Line'

We're saving that for when the Northern gets split - "Misery" and "Drain".

 

[YorksLad12]

I would go for the same idea as NorthKent1989 posted above, but with the South London Line amalgamated into the East London Line. I would then propose a separate colour on the tube map for each line as follows:

North London Line: Orange
East London Line: Gold
GOBLIN: Greyish brown
Lea Valley Line: Turquoise
Harlequin Line: Light green
Romford - Upminster shuttle*: Dark purple

*otherwise known as the Emerson Line

No. No more colours. It'll just bulk things out when two or more lines run the same route.

Can we have a manifesto commitment to do something about the state of mapping provided by TfL? Then worry about what everything is going to be called?

What's wrong with it? It's certainly the best in the country and possibly in the world. Clear and understandable. It does skew some peoples' views of what shape central London is, but bar causing some tourists to use the Tube from Covent Garden to Leicester Square it's hardly a problem.

I picked up a Tube Map the other day - it's appallingly cluttered. SE London looks like a 4 year old drew it. TfL should accept either the size of paper needs to be bigger, or scrap it for the rail & tube map only (that needs a redraw too, preferably with accessibility info).

I get the idea that it's about connectivity, but it very clearly says "Tube Map" on the front, yet shows the Emirates Air Line, which I feel confident in saying has bog-all to do with the Underground. Although it has been going down the tubes for years.

It's now halfway between Beck's lovely idea for a diagrammatic map of London's Underground system and Beck's interesting idea of a complete diagrammatic London Connections map. Strip the diagram back to what it used to be but then do a medium-sized version to include Overground, trams, even cycle superhighways. With legible text for those of use who can't manage anything smaller than eight points. Harrumph.

On topic: they shouldn't be named anything, but definitely don't name them after single destinations. We're doing something like that in Leeds now for the buses, and it's cnfusing cathing an Old Farnley Line bus when heading away from Old Farnley into Leeds and beyond.