But what about Leicester and Derby?Also if LNER would had a service to Sheffield or Nottingham then EMR would be finished and Bedford will not have a service to Nottingham
But what about Leicester and Derby?Also if LNER would had a service to Sheffield or Nottingham then EMR would be finished and Bedford will not have a service to Nottingham
the same will happen as wellBut what about Leicester and Derby?
I mean how will Leicester and Derby be served if you say “EMR will be finished”? That statement implies that the Midland Main Line will be closed in favour of the ECML.the same will happen as well
I mean how will Leicester and Derby be served if you say “EMR will be finished”? That statement implies that the Midland Main Line will be closed in favour of the ECML.
I don't know if much of it is over 75mph these days, but this is primarily a freight route so anything going much faster than that will soon start seeing yellow signals.But would it be THAT much slower? The timetable for the existing 156 service hasn`t really fully taken effect of the higher line speeds and of course makes extra stops which a London service would not. The present service often has a wait for a path at Newark for several minutes anyway which lengthens the time by that route.
Only Sheffield will lose its direct service to East Anglia. It's quicker via Doncaster already so I don't see why a change at Nottingham and Peterborough is any worse than Doncaster and Peterborough or indeed one change at Nottingham which will still be possible.Is there a market for Nottingham?
Definitely.
Is there a market for Sheffield?
Definitely.
Why?
Consider: when their direct services to East Anglia are gone / reduced, frequency and connectivity through Peterborough will be pivotal. In Sheffield’s case, a fast service to Peterborough and improved connectivity at Retford will be great news. If you assume the Norwich service starts at Nottingham, you connect there; but Ipswich and Cambridge you will want trains within 20 minutes.
As for Nottingham to Peterborough and Kings Cross, assuming the service takes in Grantham, Peterborough and Stevenage you open up very solid connectivity via Peterborough and Stevenage to lots of areas; and of course you can accelerate the Lincoln / other services accordingly.
Indeed, post-HS2 (assuming there is a modal shift and you only need 1tph to Leeds via the ECML and 1tph to Newcastle / Scotland, actually unlocking connectivity and finding use for IEP is entirely correct. Someone suggested using IEP on a Leeds to Cambridge or Ipswich - great idea. Fantastic for people who can then connect at Doncaster or Leeds with a huge array of other Northern cities and destinations.
I've taken on some advice (mainly the Norwich to Leeds idea) and changed my plan:
Post HS2, Leeds will not need 2tph LNER to Kings Cross, so I would switch the Kings Cross to Leeds and Norwich to Nottingham services to have the Leeds service run to Norwich and have one of the Kings Cross to Leeds service run to Sheffield via Nottingham. It could actually potentially be extended to Leeds connecting Nottingham with Leeds without using a slow Northern DMU.
I've taken on some advice (mainly the Norwich to Leeds idea) and changed my plan:
Post HS2, Leeds will not need 2tph LNER to Kings Cross, so I would switch the Kings Cross to Leeds and Norwich to Nottingham services to have the Leeds service run to Norwich and have one of the Kings Cross to Leeds service run to Sheffield via Nottingham. It could actually potentially be extended to Leeds connecting Nottingham with Leeds without using a slow Northern DMU.
What about the good folk of Newark! Retford and Concaster who might want to get to London?
Well currently Newark and Retford arent served by Leeds trains. Doncaster wont lose any service, since there wont need to be a fast Edinburgh once HS2 opens, so that service can call at Doncaster and go somewhere else.
Except they are. All but one of the 5 key commuter trains from Newark to London (arriving KX between 0730 and 0900) originate or run via Leeds.
No worries, that's what the forum's for. And whether it's serious or not, it's there in an official document, and so definitely fair game in the speculative section!Ok, I walked into that, apologies.
Nevertheless, I would argue that this is simply some work done by steers to look at options, and is by no means a serious proposal.
No worries, that's what the forum's for. And whether it's serious or not, it's there in an official document, and so definitely fair game in the speculative section!
If a single hourly fast to Nottingham became the premier/fast service, then both St Pancras services could take on more stops. Nottingham and Leicester services could return to Luton and/or Bedford. Or one Nottingham service could be sent elsewhere. But there isn't tons and tons of demand for extra at Derby or Chesterfield, both have a good service today. Sheffield would be on HS2. So I think the service may as well remain to Nottingham.
Crazy thought - if dwells and platforms were a problem at Nottingham itself, and the railway was 'nationalized' in the medium term, maybe a loop service would be better. Doesn't offer many interesting new pair possibilities though. Grantham is no draw, and Peterborough is better via Leicester.
Well you could run an ECML to Toton train via Nottingham, to connect with HS2.
You can't do that because Leicester, not benefitting from HS2, still needs a good fast service to London. And indeed also a good fast service to Nottingham, so you might as well run them through.If a single hourly fast to Nottingham became the premier/fast service, then both St Pancras services could take on more stops. Nottingham and Leicester services could return to Luton and/or Bedford. Or one Nottingham service could be sent elsewhere. But there isn't tons and tons of demand for extra at Derby or Chesterfield, both have a good service today. Sheffield would be on HS2. So I think the service may as well remain to Nottingham.
You could do that with the Norwich if there was a good enough reason. But Peterborough to the North East will still be quicker via the existing route than via Toton and HS2, and Peterborough to London obviously would, so it's only really Peterborough to Birmingham and maybe Sheffield that would benefit. And connecting into the proposed Midlands Connect Nottingham-HS2-Birmingham service would offer the same benefits for the former without having to re-hash most of the service pattern in the East Midlands.Well you could run an ECML to Toton train via Nottingham, to connect with HS2.
You can't do that because Leicester, not benefitting from HS2, still needs a good fast service to London. And indeed also a good fast service to Nottingham, so you might as well run them through.
You could do that with the Norwich if there was a good enough reason. But Peterborough to the North East will still be quicker via the existing route than via Toton and HS2, and Peterborough to London obviously would, so it's only really Peterborough to Birmingham and maybe Sheffield that would benefit. And connecting into the proposed Midlands Connect Nottingham-HS2-Birmingham service would offer the same benefits for the former without having to re-hash most of the service pattern in the East Midlands.
Leicester folk will hardly be worried about a fast train to London when they're stuck with some dross hourly service to Bedford or even having to change to get to Bedford (e.g. Kettering) to get onto East West.
I’m not sure I understand
Are you suggesting that the good folk of Leicester woudl prefer to have service that is around 15% slower to London but calls at Bedford / Kettering for connections that few will use?
I think the suggestion is that with all factors combined, Leicester is "on an Island" and is on its own. It's passengers will have an inferior service to London anyway compared to its local neighbours; but equally will have inferior connections to various other places (Oxford, MK, Cambridge) so my supposition is that people will want connectivity over a fast London train. You may as well accept Sheffield, Nottingham and such will switch to other faster modes and focus on wider connectivity including Midlands Hub and East West, and just decelerate the MML's services deliberately and make house-building greater between Leicester and Bedford.
Services from London currently either run non-stop to Leicester or stop just at Market Harborough. Can't imagine people at Leicester would be happy to only have slow services. It'd probably work out better to have a quicker service to London and get connectivity there - or use the Cambridge service and change at Peterborough for other connections. Granted it's not the quickest but maybe that's where improvements should take place?I think the suggestion is that with all factors combined, Leicester is "on an Island" and is on its own. It's passengers will have an inferior service to London anyway compared to its local neighbours; but equally will have inferior connections to various other places (Oxford, MK, Cambridge) so my supposition is that people will want connectivity over a fast London train. You may as well accept Sheffield, Nottingham and such will switch to other faster modes and focus on wider connectivity including Midlands Hub and East West, and just decelerate the MML's services deliberately and make house-building greater between Leicester and Bedford.
I’m sure KGX-Nottingham was proposed some years ago as something the EC operator was going to do?
Could be that I’m thinking of, although I thought it was the EC franchise.GNER (Alliance Rail Holdings) i think proposed a Sheffield-London services from Kings Cross along with Skegness, Grimsby, Scarborough etc all rejected in 2010
Could be that I’m thinking of, although I thought it was the EC franchise.
Post HS2, a potential idea could be to open a new (not on the old alignment) dead straight, 125mph line from the WCML south of Rugby to the MML south of where the line from Nuneaton joins. The fast services from London to Leicester and Loughborough would then be provided via the WCML, and additionally these places would be connected to Milton Keynes (I would have everything on the WCML fasts stop at MK post HS2). I would anticipate journey times to Leicester being roughly the same as MML timings - between 1h and 1h10m.
The junction with the WCML could be a triangle junction, with the XC Birmingham to Leicester / Peterborough / Cambridge fasts being provided via Rugby (additionally connecting these places to HS2 via Bham Int, providing connectivity from these stations to Manchester, Liverpool, Preston, Glasgow etc, and reconnecting Leicester with Coventry, a link often suggested to be reinstated due to high demand) and the line via Nuneaton could be transferred to WMT and become a commuter line with lots of new stations and no services past Leicester.