L&SE green livery???

[Chiltern 165]

Ive seen people mention in various places that London and Southeast wanted to do a green varient of the Jaffa Cake livery????

British Rail Class 455 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Does anyone know anything further about this, is there any concept art out there?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There was a withdrawn 302 painted in a green version of InterCity livery briefly once; I recall seeing it at Ilford or East Ham.

Not sure which one it was - I suspect it might have been the departmental one that later received full InterCity livery... but it was definitely green for a while, and it looked very good.

 

[physics34]

Ive seen people mention in various places that London and Southeast wanted to do a green varient of the Jaffa Cake livery????

British Rail Class 455 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Does anyone know anything further about this, is there any concept art out there?

A few EPBs got upholstery that was a green version of the blue/purple design that the jaffa cake units got in 1985. That's all I know. I assume before NSE came along in 86 that maybe a suburban version of jaffa cake.. Green maybe was in the pipeline.

 

[JonathanH]

Green maybe was in the pipeline.

I think the story was that there would have been a green based colour scheme for inner suburban services and a blue based scheme for outer suburban services, with the orange stripe being the consistent part of the livery.

The green based moquette can be seen in this picture.

Class 305 interior

Class 305/1 interior of BDT from unit no 420

www.flickr.com

Distinct from the more common blue based version.

NSE Donkey Stripe moquette on a Mark 1 CK 16195 | 2019/07/27 | Broadway

I believe this was coach 16195, with the fabric manufactured by Camira Ltd and supplied by Torrington Coastal Restorations. Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway Diesel Gala

www.flickr.com

 

[Chiltern 165]

Do you know what the exterior would've looked like

 

[norbitonflyer]

Possibly similar to this, but extending the full length of the train instead of just the first bay, and with an orange stripe at waist height?

 

[Defiance149]

There was a withdrawn 302 painted in a green version of InterCity livery briefly once; I recall seeing it at Ilford or East Ham.

Not sure which one it was - I suspect it might have been the departmental one that later received full InterCity livery... but it was definitely green for a while, and it looked very good.

That was departmental unit 302996 www.flickr.com/photos/trevor-plackett/5758463847 The Intercity one was a different set 302935.

 

[Bringback309s]

So Jaffa Cake was used for longer distance express and was basically a reflection of the interior first class trim. The intention was for a blue version to be used for outer suburban and green for inner suburban, it never happened needless to say due to NSE happening so quickly. I remember seeing a Southern region EMU (or carriage at least) in a two tone blue livery (without orange stripe) that was obviously a base test but never saw a green test livery. The green IC livery was Ilford's own for its sandite units

 

[yorksrob]

Nice idea, but I fear the mix of units and services on the Southern Region would make the colour coding impractical.

What of a VEP, for example - which could end up on an outer suburban service or a long distance one, or a CIG on a coastway stopper.

The blue and green versions of donkey stripe were quite attractive though. This worked better as it was blue for standard and brown for first (and green for EPB's).

Actually, looking back, I remember once catching a CEP from Charing Cross where the seats had been trimmed in green donkey stripe. I assume they must have been using it up.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That was departmental unit 302996 www.flickr.com/photos/trevor-plackett/5758463847 The Intercity one was a different set 302935.

Brilliant, thank you - that's the first time I've seen a picture of it; I finally know that my memory isn't playing tricks on me.

I remember seeing a Southern region EMU (or carriage at least) in a two tone blue livery (without orange stripe) that was obviously a base test

That sounds like 1568 which ran in such a livery following a graffiti vandal getting hold of it after being transferred to the South Western side.

I have a picture of it somewhere... I'll see if I can find it... Found it - and it occurs to me that a green version of that wouldn't have looked too bad either would it...?

 

[norbitonflyer]

Nice idea, but I fear the mix of units and services on the Southern Region would make the colour coding impractical.

What of a VEP, for example - which could end up on an outer suburban service or a long distance one, or a CIG on a coastway stopper.

SWT did it though -
white for long distance 159, 444, 458/0 (!) - clients, to be honoured,
blue for outer suburban (450,458/5), - customers, to be humoured
red for inner suburban (455,707) - cash cows, to be herded

You don't know what you've got 'til its gone

 

[yorksrob]

SWT did it though -
white for long distance 159, 444, 458/0 (!) - clients, to be honoured,
blue for outer suburban (450,458/5), - customers, to be humoured
red for inner suburban (455,707) - cash cows, to be herded

You don't know what you've got 'til its gone

I suppose they did, now you mention it.

 

[Bringback309s]

Brilliant, thank you - that's the first time I've seen a picture of it; I finally know that my memory isn't playing tricks on me.



That sounds like 1568 which ran in such a livery following a graffiti vandal getting hold of it after being transferred to the South Western side.

I have a picture of it somewhere... I'll see if I can find it... Found it - and it occurs to me that a green version of that wouldn't have looked too bad either would it...?

Oh never seen that before, clearly NSE era. Thats not the unit I remember, it was simpy dark blue over a mid to light blue, no sweeps etc and an orange stripe would have looked good. More akin to the "Midline" colour scheme from a similar time. Worst part is I remember taking a pic but I lost many rail pics some years ago and sadly that must have gone with it. So long ago I can't remember much, and I was only a lad at the time but I think it was a 421 or 423 and I remember lovely fresh donkey stripe inside.

 

[Helvellyn]

Nice idea, but I fear the mix of units and services on the Southern Region would make the colour coding impractical.

What of a VEP, for example - which could end up on an outer suburban service or a long distance one, or a CIG on a coastway stopper.

The blue and green versions of donkey stripe were quite attractive though. This worked better as it was blue for standard and brown for first (and green for EPB's).

Actually, looking back, I remember once catching a CEP from Charing Cross where the seats had been trimmed in green donkey stripe. I assume they must have been using it up.

Given the 'Jaffa Cake' livery was on the 411s and the first refurbished 421/7s, it's fair to say all CEPs/BEPs/CIGs/BIGs would have gained it. The retained REPs/TCs likely as well, and the 442s (I need to find the artist impression drawing). The 309s obviously got it as well (branded 'Essex Express'). The interesting question is whether loco-hauled stock would have got it as well:

• West of England line (and Class 50s) - likely yes
• Cambridge loco-hauled sets (Mark 2s, Mark 1 RMBs and 47/4s) - possibly given the distance and inclusion of buffet facilities
• Northampton Line 'Cobbler' sets - would have thought the Blue outer suburban livery more likely
• Thames Valley sets - likewise would have thought the Blue outer suburban livery

On an EMU front the 305/1s, 313s, 315s and 319/0s would have likely got the Green livery being all Standard Class. That would likely have applied to the EPBs and 455s on the third rail as well as all Standard Class.

For the Blue outer-suburban livery this would likely have been the most widely used - Class 302, 305/2, 307, 308, 310, 312, 317, 413, 414 and 423 for EMUs and probably the whole of the DMU and DEMU fleet given the First Class provision (as well as the two loco-hauled service groups above).

 

[yorksrob]

Given the 'Jaffa Cake' livery was on the 411s and the first refurbished 421/7s, it's fair to say all CEPs/BEPs/CIGs/BIGs would have gained it. The retained REPs/TCs likely as well, and the 442s (I need to find the artist impression drawing). The 309s obviously got it as well (branded 'Essex Express'). The interesting question is whether loco-hauled stock would have got it as well:

• West of England line (and Class 50s) - likely yes
• Cambridge loco-hauled sets (Mark 2s, Mark 1 RMBs and 47/4s) - possibly given the distance and inclusion of buffet facilities
• Northampton Line 'Cobbler' sets - would have thought the Blue outer suburban livery more likely
• Thames Valley sets - likewise would have thought the Blue outer suburban livery

On an EMU front the 305/1s, 313s, 315s and 319/0s would have likely got the Green livery being all Standard Class. That would likely have applied to the EPBs and 455s on the third rail as well as all Standard Class.

For the Blue outer-suburban livery this would likely have been the most widely used - Class 302, 305/2, 307, 308, 310, 312, 317, 413, 414 and 423 for EMUs and probably the whole of the DMU and DEMU fleet given the First Class provision (as well as the two loco-hauled service groups above).

It would have been quite photogenic to see. It's a shame we didn't get a taste of the blue and green liveries as we did with jaffa cake !

It was lovely to see how well 1950's EPB's scrubbed up in NSE livery.

 

[Deepgreen]

There was a withdrawn 302 painted in a green version of InterCity livery briefly once; I recall seeing it at Ilford or East Ham.

Not sure which one it was - I suspect it might have been the departmental one that later received full InterCity livery... but it was definitely green for a while, and it looked very good.

Also, this one, in 'heritage' green.

 

[43096]

SWT did it though -
white for long distance 159, 444, 458/0 (!) - clients, to be honoured,
blue for outer suburban (450,458/5), - customers, to be humoured
red for inner suburban (455,707) - cash cows, to be herded

You don't know what you've got 'til its gone

The 458s pre-dated the three livery distinction; they'd have been blue otherwise.

 

[Transilien]

Deleted

 

[Chiltern 165]

The 458s pre-dated the three livery distinction; they'd have been blue otherwise.

the 458/0s predated it but the 458/5s had/have a blue livery (they are dropping like flies right now!)

 

[yorksrob]

Also, this one, in 'heritage' green.

Ahh see also EPB 5001 of beloved memory !

 

[mavsk]

I've seen this posted on Twitter previously - it shows brown, green and blue versions of the L&SE livery. How legitimate it is, I don't know though.

x.com

x.com

 

[JonathanH]

The original brown livery did not include an upswoop at the ends of the coach, so perhaps just an illustration.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I've seen this posted on Twitter previously - it shows brown, green and blue versions of the L&SE livery. How legitimate it is, I don't know though.

x.com

x.com

Thank God for NSE! The original Jaffa Cake livery was stylish and smart but green and orange...

 

[Bringback309s]

The blue unit I remember carried that tone of blue on the bottom half, and a very dark blue above, so pretty much the same. That makes sense, apart from the upswoops

 

[yorksrob]

Thank God for NSE! The original Jaffa Cake livery was stylish and smart but green and orange...

Yes, bright orange formica was one of the distinctive design stylings of the era !

 

[delt1c]

Also, this one, in 'heritage' green.

Interesting as 302 units started at 201 not 200 , so a hybrid unit , also note the non standard headlight above buffer beam on drivers side

 

[Sun Chariot]

SWT did it though -
white for long distance 159, 444, 458/0 (!) - clients, to be honoured,
blue for outer suburban (450,458/5), - customers, to be humoured
red for inner suburban (455,707) - cash cows, to be herded

That made me chuckle!

As for keeping the "sub brands" segregated, I used to smile at frequent pairings of white-dominant 444 with blue-dominant 450 on selected Pompey Direct services.
9 car formations still run - but of course they're all SWR white now...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Interesting as 302 units started at 201 not 200 , so a hybrid unit , also note the non standard headlight above buffer beam on drivers side

302 200 was the original 302 207; the then 302 207 was originally 302 310... there was a whole host of renumberings in the late 1980s, don't ask me why - but it's probably worthy of a thread in itself as there were at least 16 units involved.

 

[Helvellyn]

A big chunk of the renumberings was to get all 30 refurbished units numbered 302201-302230. Most refurbished units were in the first batch of 302201-302237, but a few in the second batch of 302238-302312. Quite why the renumberings were considered essential I'm unsure.

 

[4SubAsociation]

A few EPBs got upholstery that was a green version of the blue/purple design that the jaffa cake units got in 1985. That's all I know. I assume before NSE came along in 86 that maybe a suburban version of jaffa cake.. Green maybe was in the pipeline.

like this? Photo by Graeme Gleaves.