Rail nationalisation: ideas, suggestions, predictions etc

[Gigabit]

Not if it is as clumsy and outdated as the NRE web site.
Third party sites can show the railway a thing or two.

While DB, ÖBB and SBB sites are remarkably good, I can't say I recommend some of the other single national sites (eg SNCF Connect, Trenitalia or Renfe).

Aren’t all the sites just using Trainline behind the scenes?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Aren’t all the sites just using Trainline behind the scenes?

I think they are all home-grown (the DB/ÖBB/SBB sites may have a common origin - but it's not Trainline).
Trainline for Europe is a recent overlay on existing booking sites, I think.
I believe our c2c/Avanti sites have some links to the Trenitalia booking engine.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

And please.. one online ticket outlet.....GBR website.... none of the faux 'competition', trainline, uber etc

Even under BR there was multiple ticket agencies which is what trainline in.

Travel agents sold tickets and there’s been some long standing travel agents providing ticket offices at stations such as Ledbury, Severn Tunnel etc.

Trainline is no different to hotel booking agencies such as booking . Com or travel agencies which sell flights.

 

[ainsworth74]

Aren’t all the sites just using Trainline behind the scenes?

Trainline are probably the biggest supplier of TOC booking sites. But not all use them. LNER and GTR both, for instance, use different providers. There may well be others but those are the two that came to mind.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

And please.. one online ticket outlet.....GBR website.... none of the faux 'competition', trainline, uber etc

And sites like trainsplit, or tickets.railforums.com, don't forget? Why would you not want different online ticket outlets? I'd have thought that ticket sales is one of the few areas of the railways where there really are huge advantages and almost no downsides to allowing free competition. Of course companies can't really compete on ticket prices because those are set by the TOCs, but they can innovate and compete on the ease with which they make information about services available, and on the friendliness of the user interfaces.

 

[yorksrob]

Talk about ticketing websites is all "fiddling with the deckchairs while Rome Burns"

The underlying issue of affordability of rail transport needs to be addressed by any incoming government.

 

[Thirteen]

I believe that under the Williams Shapps GBR plan, GBR would work closely with devolved transport bodies like TfL and TBH Labour aren't going to start taking things like LO, The Elizabeth Line and put them under GBR because they're run well but also it would create confusion

 

[43066]

I believe that under the Williams Shapps GBR plan, GBR would work closely with devolved transport bodies like TfL and TBH Labour aren't going to start taking things like LO, The Elizabeth Line and put them under GBR because they're run well but also it would create confusion

Indeed. The same practical and operational reasons underpinning why TfL haven’t realistically been able to take over SE Metro, despite people talking about it for years, will continue to apply.

And what would it achieve? The inconvenient fact that there isn’t the money to staff every station etc. and make the much larger suburban networks an extension of London Overground. You’d end up with the LO brand being diluted by grimy 30+ yo networkers and unstaffed stations!

 

[Thirteen]

Indeed. The same practical and operational reasons underpinning why TfL haven’t realistically been able to take over SE Metro, despite people talking about it for years, will continue to apply.

And what would it achieve? The inconvenient fact that there isn’t the money to staff every station etc. and make the much larger suburban networks an extension of London Overground. You’d end up with the LO brand being diluted by grimy 30+ yo networkers and unstaffed stations!

I think TfL could take over some routes where feasible. The Northern City line would fit quite well for example as well as some of the outer London routes on SWR and Southern.

 

[yorksrob]

They need an NSE to look after suburban services.

 

[317 forever]

Fares simplification will inevitably lead to winners and losers. One available simplification would be as follows:-

Have 4 basic fares: Anytime, off-peak (with this definition harmonised across the network), Advance (up to say 3 days prior to travel) and Super Advance (say up to 7 days prior to travel, possibly not released for guaranteed busy trains if these would lead to overcrowding).

Then where routes have local or InterCity style services, there can be a reduced "slow line" range of fares.

Also, where they are a range of routeings - such as London-Birmingham via High Wycombe or Milton Keynes - there can be additional options restricted to either routeing.

 

[steeevooo]

Fares simplification will inevitably lead to winners and losers. One available simplification would be as follows:-

Have 4 basic fares: Anytime, off-peak (with this definition harmonised across the network), Advance (up to say 3 days prior to travel) and Super Advance (say up to 7 days prior to travel, possibly not released for guaranteed busy trains if these would lead to overcrowding).

Then where routes have local or InterCity style services, there can be a reduced "slow line" range of fares.

Also, where they are a range of routeings - such as London-Birmingham via High Wycombe or Milton Keynes - there can be additional options restricted to either routeing.

So this simple fares structure for London-Birmingham is actually:

4 basic fare types
4 "slow line" fare types (I.e. WMT vs Avanti)
4 "restricted routings via High Wycombe"
4 "restricted routings via Milton Keynes"

16 different fare options doesn't sound necessarily simple!

 

[Meole]

So this simple fares structure for London-Birmingham is actually:

4 basic fare types
4 "slow line" fare types (I.e. WMT vs Avanti)
4 "restricted routings via High Wycombe"
4 "restricted routings via Milton Keynes"

16 different fare options doesn't sound necessarily simple!

Perhaps HS2 will have additional restricted fares to add to this ?

 

[Sly Old Fox]

My prediction is the end of rail staff travel. No way will it go from being allowed to use trains operated by one owning group to just being a free for all on all trains. Far more likely to get rid of it altogether.

 

[JonathanH]

Have 4 basic fares: Anytime, off-peak (with this definition harmonised across the network), Advance (up to say 3 days prior to travel) and Super Advance (say up to 7 days prior to travel, possibly not released for guaranteed busy trains if these would lead to overcrowding).

That isn't the direction of fares reform, especially with the move to 'on the day advances', the LNER changes and PAYG initiatives such as Project Oval. It would be somewhat odd not to head in the direction the rail industry is already moving in.

We know that the policy involves more Contactless payment, and that would tend to suggest single leg pricing and a blanket peak period.

 

[yorksrob]

That isn't the direction of fares reform, especially with the move to 'on the day advances', the LNER changes and PAYG initiatives such as Project Oval. It would be somewhat odd not to head in the direction the rail industry is already moving in.

We know that the policy involves more Contactless payment, and that would tend to suggest single leg pricing and a blanket peak period.

Ultimately the industry is heading in that direction because of government policy. It's not inconceivable that a different government might change aspects of that policy.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm coming more and more to the view that, if we want fares simplification, maybe we should just follow the example of Scotland and now the Friday trial on TfL, and simply scrap peak fares, so that there is just one single fare no matter what time of day you travel. Peak fares kinda work if they are confined to geographically small urban areas, but it's all but impossible to set up rules for peak fares for longer distances that don't cause numerous anomalies.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm coming more and more to the view that, if we want fares simplification, maybe we should just follow the example of Scotland and now the Friday trial on TfL, and simply scrap peak fares, so that there is just one single fare no matter what time of day you travel. Peak fares kinda work if they are confined to geographically small areas, but it's all but impossible to set up rules for peak fares for longer distances that don't cause numerous anomalies.

Very well said.

Add to that the distortion of travelling patterns leaving many shoulder peak services crush loaded.

 

[JonathanH]

Ultimately the industry is heading in that direction because of government policy. It's not inconceivable that a different government might change aspects of that policy.

Whilst it is current government policy, the move to Contactless is something that has cross party concensus because of how popular it has appeared to be in London.

 

[yorksrob]

Whilst it is current government policy, the move to Contactless is something that has cross party concensus because of how popular it has appeared to be in London.

Although Labour have also stated that they have no plans to close ticket offices. I realise that might not be a long term position, but I interpret it as meaning that their policy will be to retain some sort of a network of staffed ticket retail.

 

[JonathanH]

Very well said.

Add to that the distortion of travelling patterns leaving many shoulder peak services crush loaded.

I always feel a sense of being overcharged when I travel at off peak times on a route that only has anytime fares, and other people have said that on this forum before. There is something physiological about getting a discount for travelling at off peak times.

 

[yorksrob]

I always feel a sense of being overcharged when I travel at off peak times on a route that only has anytime fares, and other people have said that on this forum before. There is something physiological about getting a discount for travelling at off peak times.

I have the same feeling, however I suspect that that has more to do with the fact that such fares tend to be set at a level at which one would expect the peak fare to be set at, if the off-peak existed.

 

[TheGuy77]

They should split Northern Trains up into more manageable-sized chunks, I was also thinking of a publicly-owned rail network for South Yorkshire.

 

[Meerkat]

The unions can already bring the vast majority of the country to a stand. It's not a good reason for not doing it. The potential gains of standardisation and streamlining of staff outweighs the union thing.

Not really, they have to do it TOC by TOC. I am not convinced what these gains are (after all Northern hasn't standardised). Streamlining of staff is just as likely to end up like TPE's streamlining - looking good on paper and failing in practice. And end up with too few staff.

LNER probably give you an idea how it could be done - they issue a through ticket at the split price by applying a discount. Only for Advances though, which is the main place the issue comes up. The reason you get so many split Advances is that for a through ticket you need the same quota level available throughout.

For walk-ups you just need to run some batch jobs to identify the anomalies and keep tweaking them until they mostly go away. It's a hard thing to fix by hand but much easier when you can run a job to identify them. Must admit I was surprised to see anomalies in the new Project Oval fares - but there are some!

I get a bit confused by it all, but arent there reasons the splits exist to do with distributing loadings and selling seats for longer trips?

PS is one employer good for staff? Driver wages exploded post privatisation, and standardised terms mean switching TOCs for better money/T&Cs wont be available (though freight will be)

 

[yorksrob]

Not really, they have to do it TOC by TOC. I am not convinced what these gains are (after all Northern hasn't standardised). Streamlining of staff is just as likely to end up like TPE's streamlining - looking good on paper and failing in practice. And end up with too few staff.

I get a bit confused by it all, but arent there reasons the splits exist to do with distributing loadings and selling seats for longer trips?

PS is one employer good for staff? Driver wages exploded post privatisation, and standardised terms mean switching TOCs for better money/T&Cs wont be available (though freight will be)

Isn't the problem with TPE that the streamlining was of front line route knowledge, rather than administerial.

 

[Meerkat]

Isn't the problem with TPE that the streamlining was of front line route knowledge, rather than administerial.

Sure, but its an example of streamling that failed. If they go for wider cover they will cut, and then we will find that the cover is already covering...

 

[Stephen42]

I'm coming more and more to the view that, if we want fares simplification, maybe we should just follow the example of Scotland and now the Friday trial on TfL, and simply scrap peak fares, so that there is just one single fare no matter what time of day you travel. Peak fares kinda work if they are confined to geographically small urban areas, but it's all but impossible to set up rules for peak fares for longer distances that don't cause numerous anomalies.

The TfL trial is on the day with least peak travel and is still predicted to cost £2m each day it runs for. While there may be anomalies, any new body that pushes for fares simplification at great financial cost will quickly lose confidence from above and cause more direct management/oversight of its decisions. It needs to adhere to the overarching direction given by politicians and the budget they are allocated. As yet no party has announced significantly increased funding for rail so it shouldn't be assumed to be coming.

 

[Gigabit]

Can they do some kind of rationalisation of the variance in fare prices? If I walk up and want to travel it should not cost me £150.

 

[JonathanH]

Can they do some kind of rationalisation of the variance in fare prices? If I walk up and want to travel it should not cost me £150.

Travel to where? We can all agree that it shouldn't cost £150 to travel two miles. If the market for longer distance travel will support fares of £150 for a particular journey, then that is what will be charged.

 

[Gigabit]

Travel to where? We can all agree that it shouldn't cost £150 to travel two miles. If the market for longer distance travel will support fares of £150 for a particular journey, then that is what will be charged.

If I want to get a train to Taunton from London and I walk up to the booth, I cannot conceive of how it should cost nearly £100.

Surely it should be price per distance traveled, irrespective of timing. It is a public service.