Lack of coordination on planned major rail and road closures?

[The exile]

As some will be aware, the M4 is closed all weekend between Tormarton (Bath) and the M32 (Bristol) to remove a life-expired overbridge. For what must be a completely unrelated reason, there are no trains beyond Swindon on either route to Bristol (planned engineering, not the current points failure). I know it can’t be easy to schedule works of this scale, but having both principle arteries between London, the West and South Wales closed on the same weekend really should not happen except in an emergency.

 

[Class 170101]

Given that local and county councils cannot co-ordinate road closures between themselves as I witnessed on Wednesday this week, I don't have much faith in them co-ordinating with the railways I'm afraid.

 

[Gloster]

Coordinate! This is Britain: we don’t do those nasty Continental things like planning.

For good measure, even a council as relatively small as the Isle of Wight is quite capable of having the two major routes on one axis closed at the same time.

 

[swt_passenger]

Aren’t GW running a Paddington to South Wales service via the B&H, Bath and Bristol TM? As seen on RTT.

 

[The exile]

Aren’t GW running a Paddington to South Wales service via the B&H, Bath and Bristol TM? As seen on RTT.

They are indeed but that's still resulting in a lowering of capacity over a weekend where demand might be expected to be higher than usual.

 

[nwales58]

We have had a streetworks register (sorry, now Street Manager) since about 1990 so that the utility and highways contractors can coordinate their works, allegedly. In practice it more gives 'visibility' and less the original aim of coordination because even if the necessary high level fascist guiding mind existed they would not currently have the legal powers to tell all the others to do/not do/change what they do (and everyone would come back claiming any extra costs).

For rail, and National Highways, follow the financial incentives. Minimising user disruption across modes features nowhere. Optimising their own work drives the decisions.

Although elected politicians might seem the obvious people to take the users' views globally, I would not get them involved as all work will be deferred/paused/blocked as soon as there is a single objection leading to higher costs all round.

 

[brad465]

Earlier this year, while the Bristol-Exeter line was shut between Cogload Jct and Weston-super-Mare, there was one day where a fuel tanker spill on the M5 between Bridgwater and Taunton shut the motorway. Granted the latter was an emergency situation, but that was certainly a bad time to travel through that area in any form (XC trains were diverted via Westbury, so it was possible to get through, but this was a limited and prolonged service, such that one was better off not travelling if avoidable).

Also worth mentioning I suppose the Clifton Bridge replacement will by default have to close both the railway and the M6, as the rail bridge goes over the subject motorway.

Also, while not road and railway, Southeastern tend to be good at ensuring Maidstone and Canterbury has at least one line through them open entirely, or at least enough to ensure passengers can get to/from London.

 

[The exile]

Earlier this year, while the Bristol-Exeter line was shut between Cogload Jct and Weston-super-Mare, there was one day where a fuel tanker spill on the M5 between Bridgwater and Taunton shut the motorway. Granted the latter was an emergency situation, but that was certainly a bad time to travel through that area in any form (XC trains were diverted via Westbury, so it was possible to get through, but this was a limited and prolonged service, such that one was better off not travelling if avoidable).

Also worth mentioning I suppose the Clifton Bridge replacement will by default have to close both the railway and the M6, as the rail bridge goes over the subject motorway.

Also, while not road and railway, Southeastern tend to be good at ensuring Maidstone and Canterbury has at least one line through them open entirely, or at least enough to ensure passengers can get to/from London.

Obviously emergencies are different and there’s little can be done if the same blockade of necessity involves both main arteries, but the concept of coordination of major works across transport modes is hardly revolutionary nor exclusively fascist (to quote from elsewhere).

 

[Envoy]

Incredibly neither BBC or ITV Wales News programmes mentioned the fact that the M4 was going to be shut all weekend north of Bristol. The attitude of these broadcasters seems to be that if it not in Wales, then it is nothing to do with us - despite the blockage being only 10 minutes normal driving time east of the Severn Bridges.

 

[Snow1964]

Anyone think the transport Secretary Heidi Alexander (constituency Swindon South, so in affected area) took eye of ball by letting her Department sanction both closures (M4 and rail) of main routes at same time.

Almost feels like Highways England and Network Rail and DfT don't talk to each other.

 

[DelW]

Anyone think the transport Secretary Heidi Alexander (constituency Swindon South, so in affected area) took eye of ball by letting her Department sanction both closures (M4 and rail) of main routes at same time.

Almost feels like Highways England and Network Rail and DfT don't talk to each other.

While your last sentence may well be correct, I suspect that the planning horizons for both these works may well be over a year, so not planned under the aegis of the present Transport Secretary nor of the present government. Whether either would have made any difference to the plan is another question though.

 

[Bald Rick]

Anyone think the transport Secretary Heidi Alexander (constituency Swindon South, so in affected area) took eye of ball by letting her Department sanction both closures (M4 and rail) of main routes at same time.

I think that the cocept of the Secretary of State getting involved in the day to day planning issues of the network would be a complete waste of her time.

Perhaps the planners in both organisations picked the same weekend deliberately, having discussed between them?

Six Nations Rugby has finished, a rare non-Summer weekend of no football for Cardiff or Swansea this weekend (which always drives ‘cross border’ trwffic for home or away fans), no conerts or similar at the Principality, International football of Wales v Kazakhstan yesterday is hardly going to cause hordes of fans from England to want to get there. Add in that it is not school holidays, not a Uni start / finish weekend, and there are trains running London to South Wales on diverison.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the planners agreed that as this was *not* (thanks @DelW!) going to be a particularly busy weekend, indeed somewhat quieter than average, that it would be the ideal time to do both concurrently?

 

[Topological]

I think that the cocept of the Secretary of State getting involved in the day to day planning issues of the network would be a complete waste of her time.

Perhaps the planners in both organisations picked the same weekend deliberately, having discussed between them?

Six Nations Rugby has finished, a rare non-Summer weekend of no football for Cardiff or Swansea this weekend (which always drives ‘cross border’ trwffic for home or away fans), no conerts or similar at the Principality, International football of Wales v Kazakhstan yesterday is hardly going to cause hordes of fans from England to want to get there. Add in that it is not school holidays, not a Uni start / finish weekend, and there are trains running London to South Wales on diverison.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the planners agreed that as this was going to be a particularly busy weekend, indeed somewhat quieter than average, that it would be the ideal time to do both concurrently?

This

They had to avoid last weekend because of Wales v England in the Six Nations.

There are diversions on the trains so people who want to get through can. The road diversion is slow, but it is doable (having done it before on previous closures). If either was a particular problem then it might be more of an issue.

Ideally one of the two would have happened last weekend, but for obvious reasons that would have been a disaster.

 

[DelW]

Perhaps, just perhaps, the planners agreed that as this was going to be a particularly busy weekend, indeed somewhat quieter than average, that it would be the ideal time to do both concurrently?

I think you might be missing a "not" in there?

 

[pitdiver]

Aren’t GW running a Paddington to South Wales service via the B&H, Bath and Bristol TM? As seen on RTT.

Pardon my continuing ignorance but what is B&H?

 

[Gloster]

Pardon my continuing ignorance but what is B&H?

Berks & Hants: the usual name for the line from Reading through Newbury and Pewsey to Westbury.

 

[Envoy]

Pardon my continuing ignorance but what is B&H?

It means the Berks (Berkshire) and Hants (Hampshire) route - in other words the Reading to south-west direct main line via Newbury. The GWR Inter City express trains are running non stop Bath to Reading via this route as can be viewed by looking at:> https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G45759/2025-03-23/detailed#allox_id=2

 

[Horizon22]

While your last sentence may well be correct, I suspect that the planning horizons for both these works may well be over a year, so not planned under the aegis of the present Transport Secretary nor of the present government. Whether either would have made any difference to the plan is another question though.

Does anyone know what timeframes Highways England work to? I think Network Rail is generally 12-18 months.

 

[hwl]

Does anyone know what timeframes Highways England work to? I think Network Rail is generally 12-18 months.

They only publicly confirm several weeks in advance when they are pretty sure all the key earlier stage gates have been met or will be met, else they will delay.

 

[The Planner]

Does anyone know what timeframes Highways England work to? I think Network Rail is generally 12-18 months.

In terms of the NR documented EAS/ARP process, its 12-18, but blocks are proposed and dated at a longer timescale than that.

 

[Deepgreen]

I think a huge issue in general is the local incentives under which agencies work - the railways have their targets and quite strict timetables for engineering works, usually set months/years ahead, and the roads have theirs. The contractors in both sectors have their own rules whch often preclude the efficient combination of different works under the same closures, resulting in separate closures for each element - the classic 'hole in the road' syndrome. The vast complexity of each sectors' planning is bad enough, but then trying to combine the two effectively seems to be beyond the pale, at least sometimes. Regional-level truly strategic planning seems to be thin at best.

 

[DelW]

Does anyone know what timeframes Highways England work to? I think Network Rail is generally 12-18 months.

For a bridge demolition like this, it's probably a stand-alone contract rather than a simple call-off from a framework agreement. The demolition plant is also reasonably specialised (likely to be long reach excavators fitted with hydraulic jaws), so needs to be booked well in advance. So I'd expect the date to have been set a year or so ahead, to allow time for tendering and contract placement as well as the actual planning.

Coincidentally the M25 is also closed this weekend between J10 and J11, also for bridge demolition.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does anyone know what timeframes Highways England work to? I think Network Rail is generally 12-18 months.

This weekend’s major disruptive work on the railway would have been formally notified on 22/9/2023 and confirmed 10 weeks later on 1/12/2023. The planning and informal process / consultation etc would have been happeneing well before that.

 

[brad465]

This particular road project was probably in planning well in advance, but we are near the end of the financial year, and roadworks generally increase in February and March as councils use their remaining budget up (well I assume that's why this feels like the busiest time of the year for temporary traffic lights and night road closures). Is there an equivalent in rail engineering work terms, regarding NR using up remaining budget to get some minor engineering works done before the end of March?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there an equivalent in rail engineering work terms, regarding NR using up remaining budget to get some minor engineering works done before the end of March?

Yes, but not that needs additional access to the track that disrupts services. It is either done without affecting train servcies, or on the back of existing planned disruption.

 

[The exile]

This weekend’s major disruptive work on the railway would have been formally notified on 22/9/2023 and confirmed 10 weeks later on 1/12/2023. The planning and informal process / consultation etc would have been happeneing well before that.

Whereas the need to do anything with the Motorway bridge presumably only emerged at the point it was closed (also in 2023 - July?), so it sounds as if the railway got in first!

 

[Envoy]

Here is a Google Map of the M4 closed section & surrounding area. I have enabled live traffic - which will be at the time you click the map. I also see that jams are building up on Birdlip Hill E of Cheltenham - where road improvement works are taking place. Presumably some people are diverting via that route.

 

[Horizon22]

Here is a Google Map of the M4 closed section & surrounding area. I have enabled live traffic - which will be at the time you click the map. I also see that jams are building up on Birdlip Hill E of Cheltenham - where road improvement works are taking place. Presumably some people are diverting via that route.

Birdlip is always quite busy just because of the constrained nature of the site, hence the improvement works. That's would be a heck of an M4 detour to take and I think it is unrelated to the closure.

Maybe for people going M5 South > M4 East, but most people use A417/A419 anyway.