Leapfrogging of already delayed trains

[stuart]

Do I just have a nasty suspicious mind? Currently sitting on the 1Z15 (replacement service 1230 Edinburgh to King's Cross) outside York, which is actually the delayed 1E13 (0755 Inverness to King's Cross, due to leave Edinbugh at 1130 and placed at Edinburgh into the path of the also delayed 1E15 (0952 Aberdeen to King's Cross, due to leave Edinburgh at 1230)). Just been leapfrogged by the 1E16, (1300 Edinburgh to King's Cross), which makes my blood boil! I'm assuming the logic is that we'll already be entitled to a full delay repay payment, so it now doesn't matter how late they make us. On the other hand, if they can keep another service within the hour ...

 

[GW43125]

That’s exactly it, it’s usually preferable to let the already late train get later and later whilst keeping others on time

 

[mallard]

It's particularly bad if you're travelling on an Advance ticket, since you have to wait for your booked train (unless/until it gets cancelled) even if it's overtaken by half a dozen lightly loaded services from the same TOC...

Sure, delay repay will be paid, but in many/most cases passengers would prefer to arrive closer to their booked time.

 

[carriageline]

Unfortunately PPM rules the roost.

Not that I necessarily agree with it. Trains will never make up time if you never let them

 

[robbeech]

Do I just have a nasty suspicious mind? Currently sitting on the 1Z15 outside York, which is actually the delayed 1E13 placed at EDB into the path of the also delayed 1E15. Just been leapfrogged by the 1E16, which makes my blood boil! I'm assuming the logic is that we'll already be entitled to a full delay repay payment, so it now doesn't matter how late they make us. On the other hand, if they can keep another service within the hour ...

It is a business at the end of the day. Of course it’s not necessarily as customer focused as it could be. But then again if you are 2 hours late then those people who were in a rush will have missed what they were travelling for so it may not always be the end of the world. Neither option is ideal of course.

It's particularly bad if you're travelling on an Advance ticket, since you have to wait for your booked train (unless/until it gets cancelled) even if it's overtaken by half a dozen lightly loaded services from the same TOC...

Sure, delay repay will be paid, but in many/most cases passengers would prefer to arrive closer to their booked time.

It’s worth noting that sometimes durin disruption a friendly polite word with station staff or a guard might get you onto an ‘earlier’ service.

 

[wellhouse]

My dearly beloved was on the same train as the OP. A transition from 25 late at Tollerton Junction to 94 late at York is indeed a remarkable demonstration of performance management.

 

[stuart]

Well, I now have a possible answer to my original question. The VTEC site is mentioning a signal failure at YRK. As we had already passed the points from where an alternative route could be set, we may have been "trapped", whereas the following train could still be found a path. So there may actually have been a logical reason that goes beyond a mere profit motive.

 

[Failed Unit]

We had a similar situation earlier in the week with a signal failure at Digswell. Trains on the slow line were getting terminated at WGC and turned (even if they were going further north) must have frustrated those on the fast lines thinking the slows got priority.

 

[6Gman]

There are all sorts of reasons why it might make sense for a delayed train to be overtaken - stock balancing, traincrew issues, issues with the train etc

Not necessarily a cynical exercise (though it could be).

 

[pemma]

1Z15 is non-stop from York to London, 1E16 calls at Doncaster, Newark and Peterborough and it looks like there was only 5 minutes difference by Alexandra Palace. 1Z15 is also shown as timed for a HST, while 1E16 is shown as timed for a 225 if that makes any difference.

 

[Chris172]

I travelled on an XC service 2 weeks ago. The 16.23 to Plymouth to Wakefield and it was running 15 late when it arrived. After we departed WKF en route to Sheffield and the train suddenly stopped in Swinton and it was stuck at a red signal for 60 mins as there was a signal failure at Sheffield. Arriving into Derby the train manager stated as the service was currently 88 late it will terminate at Birmingham New Street (was suppose to be the 18.12 to Plymouth) and then became the 19.12 to Plymouth as the actual 19.12 was running nearly 70 mins late and would terminate at New Street and become the 20.12.

Are XC allowed to do this?

 

[Darandio]

Are XC allowed to do this?

Yes they are.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Are XC allowed to do this?

Makes sense to me, and I often wonder how Southern etc can have a train running 30, 40, an hour late etc when the frequency of the trains is more than that. Surely its better to cancel it and turn it in to the later train.

 

[iantherev]

I travelled on an XC service 2 weeks ago. The 16.23 to Plymouth to Wakefield and it was running 15 late when it arrived. After we departed WKF en route to Sheffield and the train suddenly stopped in Swinton and it was stuck at a red signal for 60 mins as there was a signal failure at Sheffield. Arriving into Derby the train manager stated as the service was currently 88 late it will terminate at Birmingham New Street (was suppose to be the 18.12 to Plymouth) and then became the 19.12 to Plymouth as the actual 19.12 was running nearly 70 mins late and would terminate at New Street and become the 20.12.

Are XC allowed to do this?

May well have been an additional 18:12 started from New Street.

 

[vlad]

At least if you're not travelling on the train that's late, it's far better to keep other trains running to time. You'll only have one trainload of annoyed passengers rather than several.

They don't always do it, of course. I've been on a Derby to Crewe train that's waited at the junction south of Stoke for late-running VT/XC trains to go ahead, then been told that my train is going to be terminated at Stoke as it's been delayed too long....

 

[trainophile]

I was on a TPE (1322 LIV-SCA) today that became held at Oxford Road for a lot longer than usual, until we were informed that there was a signal failure at Piccadilly. A few minutes later we were told that there was another train arriving at the platform over the bridge and people needing to get to Picc should hurry over and get that one. Lots of us did that, and we pulled out of MCO while our TPE was still stationary, and luckily I was able to get my connection with a few minutes to spare. Apparently the TPE eventually arrived at 1428 instead of the planned 1409, and had my 1430 connection departed on time I would have missed it if I'd stayed on the original train.

It made me wonder how come the Northern train was able to get through when the TPE couldn't.

 

[yorkie]

It made me wonder how come the Northern train was able to get through when the TPE couldn't.

Perhaps the issue didn't affect trains going towards Stockport, or perhaps your train had a change of crew and the crew was delayed. Or perhaps the TPE could have got through but the decision was taken to put the Northern first as by then the TPE had totally missed its slot and maybe that was in the overall interests of recovering the service. All sorts of potential reasons but it's not necessarily the case that one train can get through while another can't.

 

[tsr]

Makes sense to me, and I often wonder how Southern etc can have a train running 30, 40, an hour late etc when the frequency of the trains is more than that. Surely its better to cancel it and turn it in to the later train.

Southern’s stock (as with many TOCs) could end up dramatically out of position if you do that. The next train may be booked to then go on to do something completely different compared to the plan for the stock used for the previous run down the same bit of track. This is one of many reasons why controllers often find it is technically better (albeit not “visibly” customer-friendly) to terminate trains short of destinations, skip stops etc.

The outgoing timetable has more splits/attaches and swapping between routes, though, so it should become marginally easier to do this under the new GTR timetable from Sunday. You still have to be careful to get the right units (for mileage-based maintenance) and the right number (for the next day’s service) in place overnight.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I've been on a Derby to Crewe train that's waited at the junction south of Stoke for late-running VT/XC trains to go ahead, then been told that my train is going to be terminated at Stoke as it's been delayed too long....

EMT do this regularly. It’s quite frustrating, as there is no other service to Longport & no other provision made. The trouble is there’s only a 5 minute turnaround at Crewe & no spare units. At the Derby end there are spare units, and double the turnaround time! Seems back to front to me.

On the plus side I regularly get my money back as the journey is then an hour late. If I turn up at LPT and the train is cancelled I get the outward refunded, and it’s not unknown to return and find that cancelled too, for a totally free trip.

Of course, when the trip is important, I have to make my own way to Stoke Station and start there as LPT is too unreliable under EMT (although, credit where credit due, they have been a little better recently) Why they can’t arrange LNWR to stop I have no idea. The Southbound stop would cause minimal delay to that train & none at all to any other. In the Up, no delay to anything at all as it sits at Stoke for 5 mins anyway.

London Midland (as then was) used to run direct Stafford-Crewe when late. But common sense prevailed, and a few bad press comments, and they now no longer do that. Having “made changes to resources”

 

[stuart]

1Z15 is non-stop from York to London, 1E16 calls at Doncaster, Newark and Peterborough and it looks like there was only 5 minutes difference by Alexandra Palace. 1Z15 is also shown as timed for a HST, while 1E16 is shown as timed for a 225 if that makes any difference.

Yes, and we were actually being delayed by the presence of the 1E16 by the time we reached Peterborough, although a couple of other stopping trains were moved out of our way.