Leasing costs and track access charges comparison between Class 22x and Class 80x fleet

[The Ham]

Mod - split from this thread

Also, whoevers running the franchise will have to cough up the money for other things such as crew training and potentially higher leasing costs.

Leading costs are subjective though, if you're paying 50% more in leading costs but 30% less in maintenance and fuel costs and getting 30% more seats (so staff costs on a per seat basis falls) then the maths may well work to justify the extra capacity.

The other thing to consider is that the track access charges for the HST's are much higher than they are for most of the 22x's, as although each coach in less the two locos are much higher.

A 9 coach (if one exists) 221M would have a lease cost of 218.79p/m

A 8+2 HS2 is 193.68p/m

However change that to a 9 coach 222 (151.38p/m) or a 9 coach 221 (149.22p/m) or even a 221HB/M (166.14p/m) and the track access charges are lower.

I've not found track access charges for the 80x's however to be in a par with a 8+2 HST when running as a 10 coach then the per coach cost would need to be 19.37p/m which is fairly high, especially given that not all coaches have engines in then (the 390T's are quite a bit less than this even though the 390M's are higher).

 

[greatvoyager]

Leading costs are subjective though, if you're paying 50% more in leading costs but 30% less in maintenance and fuel costs and getting 30% more seats (so staff costs on a per seat basis falls) then the maths may well work to justify the extra capacity.

The other thing to consider is that the track access charges for the HST's are much higher than they are for most of the 22x's, as although each coach in less the two locos are much higher.

A 9 coach (if one exists) 221M would have a lease cost of 218.79p/m

A 8+2 HS2 is 193.68p/m

However change that to a 9 coach 222 (151.38p/m) or a 9 coach 221 (149.22p/m) or even a 221HB/M (166.14p/m) and the track access charges are lower.

I've not found track access charges for the 80x's however to be in a par with a 8+2 HST when running as a 10 coach then the per coach cost would need to be 19.37p/m which is fairly high, especially given that not all coaches have engines in then (the 390T's are quite a bit less than this even though the 390M's are higher).

I think it'll be interesting to see what solution they come up with.

 

[hooverboy]

I've not found track access charges for the 80x's however to be in a par with a 8+2 HST when running as a 10 coach then the per coach cost would need to be 19.37p/m which is fairly high, especially given that not all coaches have engines in then (the 390T's are quite a bit less than this even though the 390M's are higher).

no chance of that.
I would have thought that the 80x vehicles are weighing in somewhere approaching 50T/vehicle(250T/set)
Hence the astronomically high track access charges...I'd estimate in excess of 22p/m given the 10% extra tare and 25% extra laden weights.

that is about 50% more than a 220 or 222 costs.

class 221 is 227T for a 5 car set.

 

[greatvoyager]

Are there any other ways to reduce weight on the units?

 

[hooverboy]

no chance of that.
I would have thought that the 80x vehicles are weighing in somewhere approaching 50T/vehicle(250T/set)
Hence the astronomically high track access charges...I'd estimate in excess of 22p/m given the 10% extra tare and 25% extra laden weights.

that is about 50% more than a 220 or 222 costs.

class 221 is 227T for a 5 car set.

edit ;
seems 80x aren't that bad.
here's the latest track access charges for 2019 by vehicle type/ ppm

220/M 17.34
221/M 25.43
221HB/M 19.31
222/M 17.59

First Greater Western Limited 800/M FLU 17.89
First Greater Western Limited 800/M RLU 18.09
First Greater Western Limited 800/T FLU 9.95
First Greater Western Limited 800/T RLU 15.38
First Greater Western Limited 802/M FLU 18.14
First Greater Western Limited 802/M RLU 18.35
First Greater Western Limited 802/T FLU 15.72
First Greater Western Limited 802/T RLU 15.38

 

[The Ham]

edit ;
seems 80x aren't that bad.
here's the latest track access charges for 2019 by vehicle type/ ppm

220/M 17.34
221/M 25.43
221HB/M 19.31
222/M 17.59

First Greater Western Limited 800/M FLU 17.89
First Greater Western Limited 800/M RLU 18.09
First Greater Western Limited 800/T FLU 9.95
First Greater Western Limited 800/T RLU 15.38
First Greater Western Limited 802/M FLU 18.14
First Greater Western Limited 802/M RLU 18.35
First Greater Western Limited 802/T FLU 15.72
First Greater Western Limited 802/T RLU 15.38

Thanks, that's very interesting information.

However just as a side note, even if the 80x's were 8p/m more over a 1,000 mile trip the extra ~60 seats would have to cover an extra £80. Now not every service would have an extra 60 passengers (some wouldn't have any extra, whilst others would have more than 100 passengers), however even an average of 8 extra passengers paying £10 each would cover that extra costs.

It would certainly be a lot cheaper than many of the other options to increase capacity (such as extra staff for running units in pairs)

 

[hooverboy]

Thanks, that's very interesting information.

However just as a side note, even if the 80x's were 8p/m more over a 1,000 mile trip the extra ~60 seats would have to cover an extra £80. Now not every service would have an extra 60 passengers (some wouldn't have any extra, whilst others would have more than 100 passengers), however even an average of 8 extra passengers paying £10 each would cover that extra costs.

It would certainly be a lot cheaper than many of the other options to increase capacity (such as extra staff for running units in pairs)

I have no idea what the lease costs to the ROSCO would be though.
I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume £100k per vehicle per year.

 

[The Ham]

I have no idea what the lease costs to the ROSCO would be though.
I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume £100k per vehicle per year.

Historically it was always (per coach) £100,000 for a EMU and £110,000 for a DMU.

However, again with the extra capacity of the 80x's over the 22x's if you are getting extra units is better to have 5 coach 80x over a 5 coach 22x (due to extra capacity) or a 6 coach 22x (which is comparable capacity but an extra cost to lease).

 

[greatvoyager]

Historically it was always (per coach) £100,000 for a EMU and £110,000 for a DMU.

However, again with the extra capacity of the 80x's over the 22x's if you are getting extra units is better to have 5 coach 80x over a 5 coach 22x (due to extra capacity) or a 6 coach 22x (which is comparable capacity but an extra cost to lease).

Unless XC can get a good lease deal as they could potentially be the only user of the 22x units.

 

[The Ham]

Unless XC can get a good lease deal as they could potentially be the only user of the 22x units.

Whilst that's true, there's also the cost of the maintenance of the units. A lot of modern trains have been designed to reduce these costs and so can work out just as cheap overall.

The other thing to consider is the number of 4 coach units and that to get then so that they are equal to or greater capacity you'd either need to create a 6 coach unit or run then in pairs (4+4). Either way it's likely that please costs would have to be significantly cheaper.

As an example you'd have to be paying £83,333 per coach on a 6 coach 22x to give you the same capacity as a 5 coach 80x if you were paying £100,000 per coach.

Whilst if you opted for a 4+4 then you'd need to be paying £62,500 per coach although that would give you more capacity (equivalent to 7 * 22x coaches, so probably more like £71,430 on a like for like basis).

 

[greatvoyager]

Whilst that's true, there's also the cost of the maintenance of the units. A lot of modern trains have been designed to reduce these costs and so can work out just as cheap overall.

The other thing to consider is the number of 4 coach units and that to get then so that they are equal to or greater capacity you'd either need to create a 6 coach unit or run then in pairs (4+4). Either way it's likely that please costs would have to be significantly cheaper.

As an example you'd have to be paying £83,333 per coach on a 6 coach 22x to give you the same capacity as a 5 coach 80x if you were paying £100,000 per coach.

Whilst if you opted for a 4+4 then you'd need to be paying £62,500 per coach although that would give you more capacity (equivalent to 7 * 22x coaches, so probably more like £71,430 on a like for like basis).

Surely though costs can be reduced through the common parts the units share?

 

[greatvoyager]

Is the value of the units going to have depreciated as they are getting on for 20 years old?