Leeds - Sheffield via Westgate "fast" service

[Manutd1999]

It is probably do able between Leeds and Swinton if it goes from Leeds at something like xx.41 (ie 30 mins apart from the XC path. However once it gets to Swinton it is exactly in the path of the XC Newcastle to Reading service (most of which don't run at the moment). Assuming it takes this path then it would leave Sheffield about 15-20 minutes in front of the existing Liverpool - Nottingham/Norwich service.
In addition you are depriving Chapeltown, Elsecar and Wombwell passengers direct services to Leeds.

I was assuming the second XC does not return. If not, then the Leeds-Sheffield could probably run 5 minutes earlier or later, still giving a near clockface service but slotting in ahead/behind the other XC south of Sheffield. I accept a 20/40 service Sheffield to Nottingham is not ideal, but it's not terrible either....

Chapeltown etc would have a same-platform connection at Barnsley and perhaps some extras (or additional stops) could be added to give a direct srvice in the peaks.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I was assuming the second XC does not return. If not, then the Leeds-Sheffield could probably run 5 minutes earlier or later, still giving a near clockface service but slotting in ahead/behind of the other XC south of Sheffield. I accept a 20/40 service Sheffield to Nottingham is not ideal, but it's not terrible either....

Chapeltown etc would have a same-platform connection at Barnsley and perhaps some extras (or additional stops) could be added to give a direct srvice in the peaks.

You may be right about XC but
1) some trains still run via Doncaster
2) If XC doesn't "make money" I doubt an extra Leeds Sheffield service would.....

 

[Manutd1999]

Slightly off-topic, but I actually think this would be a much better way to run the XC operation.

Cut XC back to once hourly on the main axis (Edinburgh/Manchester - Birmingham - Plymouth/Southampton). Regional operators then provide a second hourly service between key city pairs where there is demand (eg, Leeds - Sheffield, Manchester - Birmingham). This enables better matching of capacity and demand, rather than constraining the whole XC network.

 

[quantinghome]

Slightly off-topic, but I actually think this would be a much better way to run the XC operation.

Cut XC back to once hourly on the main axis (Edinburgh/Manchester - Birmingham - Plymouth/Southampton). Regional operators then provide a second hourly service between key city pairs where there is demand (eg, Leeds - Sheffield, Manchester - Birmingham). This enables better matching of capacity and demand, rather than constraining the whole XC network.

I don't think that would help much. Other operators already supplement the service in places. It would just complicate operations. As for matching demand, there is pretty much continuous demand on the XC core (demarcated by Bristol, Reading, York and Manchester). I can't see what problem this would solve.

What is needed is a major hike in capacity, and serious consideration of improving the XC frequency at Leeds which currently has the worst service for a major city on the XC network.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Only new platforms 2 & 3 would be used by the fast services. Platforms 4 & 5 should be long enough for four-car units at either end, not much different to now (except there's two platforms in the future instead of just P4 as now).

Though there isn't "just P4" now, there's P4a, P5 & P6, albeit with P5 only able to hold a 2-car 150. Currently with the Casvegas Flyer not running and the Bradfords being 2-hourly, there's three platforms to run just 1.5 terminating trains per hour, so Huddersfield should have the capacity to accommodate at least an extra hourly service- though as HUD is a crew depot for Northern, turnarounds are extended to allow PNBs and so on.
I'd certainly hope that the new signalling system will allow turnbacks in the slow line platforms, though I'd equally not be surprised if all the focus goes towards through Leeds to Manchester journeys as per the awkward 2018 timetable which sacrificed local connectivity for the headline of six trains per hour.

 

[adrock1976]

An additional fast service via Wakefield Westgate, running in the opposite half-hour to the XC service, seems to make sense all round. Even better this could extend to Nottingham, replacing the current service via Barnsley. This gives a consistent half-hourly schedule from Leeds all the way to Chesterfield, with one service extending to Derby and Birmingham (XC) and the other to Nottingham (Northern).

As others have said, the semi-fast via Barnsley could then pick up extra stops at Darton/Normanton to give these stations a more direct service to Leeds. Something like this:

4ph out of platform 17 at Leeds, inter-working as required:

2ph Leeds - Woodlesford - Castleford - Glasshoughton - Pontefract - Knottingley
2ph Leeds - Normanton - Kirkgate - Darton - Barnsley - Meadowhall - Sheffield - extending to Lincoln

This is supplemented by 2x additional stoppers between Sheffield and Barnsley:

2ph Sheffield - all stops - Barnsley - continuing to either Huddersfield (1ph) or Castleford (1ph, with extensions to York)


As mentioned, via Westgate there would be a half-hourly fast service. Combined with stoppers and the existing LNER, this gives a total of 7ph along the Leeds to Westgate line:

2ph Leeds - Westgate - Sheffield - continuing to either Birmingham (XC) or Nottingham (Northern)
1ph Leeds - Westgate - Streethouse - Featherstone - Pontefract - Knottingley
2ph Leeds - Outwood - Westgate - Sandal - Fitzwilliam - continuing to either Sheffield via Thurnscoe (1ph) or Doncaster (1ph)
2ph LNER


Just about do-able?

The Knottingley via Streethouse I would also suggest sending it to Goole, ideally timed to provide a quality connection with the Doncaster - Hull service.

 

[YorksLad12]

Though there isn't "just P4" now, there's P4a, P5 & P6, albeit with P5 only able to hold a 2-car 150.

Oh, you know what I meant
And it's P4A, P4B, 5 & 6. P4 as a whole would have been used for the LNER service but I don't think TPE's 5-car sets use it regularly. Which platform did the doubled-up stoppers use at the start of Covid?

I'd certainly hope that the new signalling system will allow turnbacks in the slow line platforms, though I'd equally not be surprised if all the focus goes towards through Leeds to Manchester journeys as per the awkward 2018 timetable which sacrificed local connectivity for the headline of six trains per hour.

I'd be disappointed if the new platforms 2, 3, 4 and 5 weren't all bi-di. That gives new P4 & P5 the ability to be split up the way the current P4 is (the same as P15 & 16 at Leeds, with a centre platform signal), so you could have stopping services from either direction. At a pinch you could have two east-facing stopping services on the same platform, one behind the other (not sure how long the new P5 will be though).

The Knottingley via Streethouse I would also suggest sending it to Goole, ideally timed to provide a quality connection with the Doncaster - Hull service.

Historically it was Wakefield-Goole but has been Leeds-Goole in modern times (when it ran). If we double up Leeds-Castleford-Pontefract-Knottingley then I'd run the other service as Wakefield-Pontefract-York, especially if Sheffield-York gets the chop.