Legal Tender and paying for rail travel

[RichE]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #17 originally from this thread.

There is nothing wrong with Scottish money!!!

If the requirement is to pay in legal tender then Scottish notes are not acceptable and the correct amount must be tendered. Scottish notes aren't even legal tender in Scotland. If payment is sought in legal currency then payment can be made using Scottish notes and change may be sought. It is a very slim but definite distinction that is made in law and one which few people know about.

 

[Bletchleyite]

the correct amount must be tendered.

Once again this is not correct. An amount in excess of the debt may be tendered, but in such a case change is not required to be given; the full amount tendered is considered settlement.

 

[eastdyke]

If the requirement is to pay in legal tender then Scottish notes are not acceptable and the correct amount must be tendered. Scottish notes aren't even legal tender in Scotland. If payment is sought in legal currency then payment can be made using Scottish notes and change may be sought. It is a very slim but definite distinction that is made in law and one which few people know about.

The Bank of England seem to have it covered:
http://edu.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/what-is-legal-tender/

What is legal tender?
Legal tender has a very narrow and technical meaning, which relates to settling debts. It means that if you are in debt to someone then you can’t be sued for non-payment if you offer full payment of your debts in legal tender.
What is classed as legal tender varies throughout the UK. In England and Wales, legal tender is Royal Mint coins and Bank of England notes. In Scotland and Northern Ireland only Royal Mint coins are legal tender. Throughout the UK, there are some restrictions when using the lower value coins as legal tender. For example, 1p and 2p coins only count as legal tender for any amount up to 20p.

 

[pemma]

Do we need to have another legal tender debate? It's much simpler to just say passengers need a suitable method of payment in order to buy a ticket - cash, card, RTV etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do we need to have another legal tender debate? It's much simpler to just say passengers need a suitable method of payment in order to buy a ticket - cash, card, RTV etc.

RTVs are a bit of a nuisance, really, being only accepted by people and not machines. If most Delay Repay is now paid as actual money, should they perhaps be abolished? Then you're just down to cash and card, and remove the option of walking round with an RTV in your pocket as a guaranteed way of getting off a PF/prosecution until you are asked to spend it.

(Merseytravel scratch off Saveaways also worked like that - see an inspector, scratch it off)

 

[WelshBluebird]

RTVs are a bit of a nuisance, really, being only accepted by people and not machines. If most Delay Repay is now paid as actual money, should they perhaps be abolished?

Not sure I like the idea of removing an option for those who don't want to give a ToC their bank details to get delay compensation back.

 

[Starmill]

If most Delay Repay is now paid as actual money, should they perhaps be abolished?

I've recieved them recently despite politely requesting online credit (as in e-vouchers) or a bank transfer. I wouldn't be entitled to cash in the majority circumstances I've been sent RTVs recently, and I've been sent them on a significant number of occasions this year so far, amounting to significant value. Chiltern even sent me some as charter compensation, and it was quite a significant amount (however, I forgot to specify my preferred method in that case). I would suggest the TOCs are mostly still issuing them in large numbers because it's commercially advantageous to them to dispense with customer cases in this way?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure I like the idea of removing an option for those who don't want to give a ToC their bank details to get delay compensation back.

A cheque could be an option as well, much as those are a bit archaic they aren't going to disappear any time soon (indeed they are going to become easier to present as scanning them in will be adequate).

But I don't see why you'd object to giving your bank details to anyone you like. All they can do with them is send you money or set up a Direct Debit, with the latter it is guaranteed to be reversible if you report it regardless of reason[1]. In Germany, for example, it is usual to put them on business letterhead footers on all letters they send.

[1] Hopefully DD will implement, at some point, a 3D Secure style challenge-response system, then the risk would move from "almost none" to "none at all".

 

[Starmill]

Not sure I like the idea of removing an option for those who don't want to give a ToC their bank details to get delay compensation back.

Cheques are an option, and are common in my experience, but they take such a long time (both to be issued, then posted, and then again after you have deposited them for money to become available to spend) and require me to visit a bank branch, making them probably the least convenient method of being paid I have ever experienced. I always try to avoid taking them wherever possible.

 

[WelshBluebird]

A cheque could be an option as well, much as those are a bit archaic they aren't going to disappear any time soon (indeed they are going to become easier to present as scanning them in will be adequate).

But I don't see why you'd object to giving your bank details to anyone you like. All they can do with them is send you money or set up a Direct Debit, with the latter it is guaranteed to be reversible if you report it regardless of reason. In Germany, for example, it is usual to put them on business letterhead footers on all letters they send.

Personally I am fine with it! But I know a lot of people are pretty uncomfortable with the shift we have had in the last decade or so that gives a lot more power to the banks. And I don't like the idea of removing an option that currently works for no real reason. If TVM's not taking them is your issue then that is a fault of the TVM's and the vouchers (It certainly isn't a problem with the concept - as you can easily use coupons in supermarket self service machines).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cheques are an option, and are common in my experience, but they take such a long time (both to be issued, then posted, and then again after you have deposited them for money to become available to spend) and require me to visit a branch, making them probably the least convenient method of being paid I have ever experienced. I always try to avoid taking them wherever possible.

Get a better bank, then. Soon it'll be possible to deposit a cheque by taking a photograph of it using your mobile phone. Mine takes them by (free)post, which is a lot less faff than a branch, and has done for the last...well...entire time it has existed (since about 2000).

 

[pemma]

Are RTVs still needed for those without a UK bank account?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are RTVs still needed for those without a UK bank account?

Fair point, though that does not require them to be redeemable for a ticket. It could be changed so they were only redeemable for cash at a ticket office.

 

[Harbouring]

Surely RTV's are advantageous for a company as they are most likely to be used to pay for tickets and therefore they actually don't cost anything as the service would be running anyway?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely RTV's are advantageous for a company as they are most likely to be used to pay for tickets and therefore they actually don't cost anything as the service would be running anyway?

True, though if they cost too much to accept...

Another option would be to move them to a gift card type system which could be redeemed at anywhere selling tickets with a card slot.

 

[Starmill]

Are RTVs still needed for those without a UK bank account?

I don't think you can pay RTVs into a UK bank account.

 

[gnolife]

I don't think you can pay RTVs into a UK bank account.

But a lot of TOC's websites don't have the option to put in an SWIFT code for a bank - it only takes the UK format for sort code. I'm not sure what the policy for cashing cheques abroad is, but if that isn't possible, the only option left is RTVs.

 

[paddington]

Fair point, though that does not require them to be redeemable for a ticket. It could be changed so they were only redeemable for cash at a ticket office.

The last time I had an RTV, the validity for redeeming into cash at that TOC's ticket office was a month, and I had no plans to visit that TOC's area within that time so had to use it to buy a ticket. Even worse if you don't actually live in the UK (but stayed long enough to receive an RTV in the post...)

But a lot of TOC's websites don't have the option to put in an SWIFT code for a bank - it only takes the UK format for sort code. I'm not sure what the policy for cashing cheques abroad is, but if that isn't possible, the only option left is RTVs.

Cheques can be cashed anywhere but the fee for doing so is likely to exceed the amount of compensation. Outside western/central Europe, cheques are likely to be completely worthless for anything say less than £75. I'm not sure whether it would be easier in EEA countries which still use cheques domestically. In an EEA country which doesn't use cheques any more, you would probably have to travel to a big city branch where they deal with these things.

 

[Joe Paxton]

But I don't see why you'd object to giving your bank details to anyone you like. All they can do with them is send you money or set up a Direct Debit [...]

Bank details are useful to fraudsters for rather more than just that.

And it's reasonable for people to be sceptical about any large (or indeed small) organisation actually successfully managing to keep customers' personal details secure.