Letter from TIL threatening prosecution

[Sam6o]

Hi all, I am hoping you can help me here?

On the 10th January I went from Birmingham New Streer to Stafford.

I never make this journey, and the only reason for doing so was to attend a gig with a colleauge.

I pay for a monthly rail pass to travel from Staffordshire (the county in which I live) through to Birmingham.

I boarded the train (cross country) to take the 2 stops through to Stafford and shortly after Wolverhampton I was asked to produce a ticket, to which I gladly produced my rail pass.
The member of staff said this was not valid and at this point I apologised that I did not know this and I was happy to buy a ticket for the full journey to which the staff member declined and then asked me to follow her to the gulley.

In the gulley of the train I was read my rights and escorted off the train at Stafford. Where I was due to alight.

At this time she asked me about my travel and why I was traveling without a ticket. I provided my answers, noting that I had not made the journey before, and that I live in Cannock (Staffordshire) and I pay for my rail pass with an aditional monthly fare of around £10 to travel through to Staffordshire (the normal rail pass goes from Walsall to Birmingham but there is an option to pay an extra fee on a monthly basis to travel through to Staffordshire county)

She wrote all this down, and also asked at this time if I had the means to purchase a ticket to which I replied I did and was more than happy to do so, to which I was declined this opportunity.

I signed the handwritten account of events that she wrote down exactly everything that I said and she then provided me with a "free" ticket. Printing out the ticket from the machine she had on her.

Anyone know why this was done?

Fast forward to 3 weeks i had a letter through the post to advise of potential court action. I provided my responses and account of events as above. Apologised that this was evidentally a missunderstanding oversight on my side and I was happy to pay for the cost of a ticket and ant additional fees for this.

I recieved a letter friday saying that TIL had taken note of my comments but the train company aledge that I did not have a valid ticket and "also failed to pay the appropriate fare due in accordance with the rules in force"

Anyone know what this means? It reads as if I refused to pay for a ticket straight out.

I have responded to the letter reiterating the accurate account of events and also advised that my colleauge who was with me can attest to my comments re wishing to purchase a ticket, and also the member of staff had cctv on her which I have also pointed out that I am happy for this to be reviewed.
Also again I have advised I am happy to pay any costs regarding this matter.

Obviously a little worried about all this, I understand that I am to blame given then I didnt have the correct ticket (but given that Stafford is in Staffordshire and i live in the county, you would think its a given that the ticket would be valid!). It is a complete oversight/misunderstanding but I feel that the approach being taken is a little drastic.

Any advice you can give in regards to this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance all.

 

[30907]

What exactly is the ticket you hold, and does it have the word Staffordshire on it? I can only find reference to WM Zone 5 which is clearly defined and very clearly not valid beyond Wolverhampton.

 

[Sam6o]

What exactly is the ticket you hold, and does it have the word Staffordshire on it? I can only find reference to WM Zone 5 which is clearly defined and very clearly not valid beyond Wolverhampton.

Hey, thanks for the reply

It is a Swift card (kind of like an Oyster card for the West Midlands) and it is "pre loaded" with travel zones.

No wording on the card with specific locations.

I find it a little strange that it is not valid past Wolverhampton given that Staffordshire where I live is further in distance from Birmingham.

Perhaps its just that specific route that is not covered or even Stafford City in itself is not covered?

 

[30907]

Hey, thanks for the reply

It is a Swift card (kind of like an Oyster card for the West Midlands) and it is "pre loaded" with travel zones.

No wording on the card with specific locations.

I find it a little strange that it is not valid past Wolverhampton given that Staffordshire where I live is further in distance from Birmingham.

Perhaps its just that specific route that is not covered or even Stafford City in itself is not covered?

No. The only route that is covered outside the WM boundary is the Chase Line towards Rugeley. It's called Zone 5. Stafford is a considerable distance further out by any route.
I live in West Yorkshire. There is a special Zone covering Skipton in North Yorkshire, but a Metro ticket equivalent to your Swift isn't thereby valid at Harrogate, which is nearer Leeds on a different line - let alone at York which is still within Yorkshire, or Scarborough.

 

[island]

We will need to understand what precise ticket you have before we can give you any useful advice.

 

[Sam6o]

No. The only route that is covered outside the WM boundary is the Chase Line towards Rugeley. It's called Zone 5. Stafford is a considerable distance further out by any route.
I live in West Yorkshire. There is a special Zone covering Skipton in North Yorkshire, but a Metro ticket equivalent to your Swift isn't thereby valid at Harrogate, which is nearer Leeds on a different line - let alone at York which is still within Yorkshire, or Scarborough.

Ah, I see.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.

It seems this oversight is completley my fault which I am not denying given the information you have provided above.

I am happy to pay the relevant fare and fine for this mattee but this offer does not seem forthcoming. Do you have any experience with persuing this outcome at all?
Many thanks

 

[Sam6o]

We will need to understand what precise ticket you have before we can give you any useful advice.

Hey, thanks for getting in touch.

Another member as above has reviewed this matter

The card is a Swift card, a sort of oyster card if you will.

Thanks

 

[furlong]

Well precisely what ticket have you bought? Exactly what price did you pay for what duration? For example, there is a ticket at £199.30 per month that includes Stafford. http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=STA&dest=I421&tkt=RX7

 

[boxy321]

The zones are not a series of circles centered around Brum. My all zone nnetwork card lets me go from Coventry to Wolverhampton (1 hour) but not to Kenilworth (6 minutes away). I can also travel to Rugeley (2 hours) but not Bedworth (10 minutes).

 

[Realfish]

The zones are not a series of circles centered around Brum. My all zone nnetwork card lets me go from Coventry to Wolverhampton (1 hour) but not to Kenilworth (6 minutes away). I can also travel to Rugeley (2 hours) but not Bedworth (10 minutes).

It's confusing. Parts of South Staffordshire are in the zones, parts not.

While the TM was correct, I have every sympathy for the OP and his confusion when you consider that the WM Swift Ticket finder offers ineligible fares from Stafford to Brum, for the same price as the Cannock services. The ntrain 'Out of County' monthly fare from Stafford should be £179.40, not £34.50 to zone 1/2. TfWM clearly have a problem with their site. Unsuspecting travellers beware.

 

[Sam6o]

Thank you all for your responses.

I have just now called TIL to ask of we can settle this today.

The lady on the phone advised that she would check my file and advised that Ishould expect a letter tomorrow, she would not disclose the contents of the letter.

I advised i am happy to pay for this matter over the phone and that it seemed to be a missunderstanding and oversight on my side.
In both my letters I had advised this was the case and apologised and advised I was happy to pay the fine in regards to this.

So right now I am incredibly anxious to see what this letter says. It doesnt seem right that this is whats happened.

 

[gray1404]

Could the OP please advise how they purchased the ticket they were using on the day of travel? Did they purchase it online, using the same site as a screenshots provided above, and enter Stafford as either their origin or destination station? Do you have any confirmation emails/screen shots from an online account or receipts relating to your purchase?

If so, there is an argument that XC should have accepted the ticket and that the customer had a valid ticket because it was being used in conjunction with a valid "itinerary" . I use the word itinerary loosely there as I see the site above will not tie you to a specific train but does seem to allow you to select 2 stations and then purchase a ticket valid for unlimited travel between them. If so, XC seriously need to drop this action against the passenger and take the matter up internally within the rail industry with Network West Midlands.

As the OP has experienced, XC has passed the matter to their contractor called Transport Investigations Limited. This company has a dreadful reputation and fail to listen to sense and reason. They ignore anything offered in mitigation by passengers and send the same standard worded letters to just about everyone they correspond with. Their general line is that they see no reason why the matter cannot proceed for prosecution. Their attitude on the phone is disgusting too.

Therefore, the OP should not be too alarmed if they receive and continue to receive such letters. They should continue to respond to them repeating themselves (yes, I say repeating what you might have already told them) that they wish to settle this matter and offer anything in mitigation. When the OP receives another letter from TIL feel free to post it here (with personal information removed) and we can help you draft a suitable reply.

Once the OP answers the questions I posted above at the start of this post, we will be able to look at any other action that can be taken. I know it is easy for me to say but please, try not to worry, there is help here for you as you go though this process - it is normal for it to take a little while to sort out so hang in there.

 

[some bloke]

I recieved a letter friday saying that TIL had taken note of my comments but the train company aledge that I did not have a valid ticket and "also failed to pay the appropriate fare due in accordance with the rules in force"

Anyone know what this means? It reads as if I refused to pay for a ticket straight out.

In case this helps you sleep tonight:

If it doesn't say anything about "intent to avoid a fare", they may be only thinking about a lesser, byelaw offence which simply means you failed to buy a valid ticket before boarding. If you upload a photo of the letter with identifying details removed, people may be able to clarify.

 

[Haywain]

While the TM was correct, I have every sympathy for the OP and his confusion when you consider that the WM Swift Ticket finder offers ineligible fares from Stafford to Brum, for the same price as the Cannock services. The ntrain 'Out of County' monthly fare from Stafford should be £179.40, not £34.50 to zone 1/2. TfWM clearly have a problem with their site.

I wasn’t offered the fares you managed to illustrate, so it is not a general fault.

 

[gray1404]

I was only offered fares (although different more expensive ones) when I selected "Pass: Ntrain". When I simply selected "Mode: train" I wasn't offered anything.

Depending on how the OP purchased their ticket and the information they were presented with, they might have a strong basis to challenge this. However, we need further information from them first.

I see that a couple of members above have asked the OP a couple of times which ticket they have purchased but the OP has not yet provided this information. It might be worth taking screen shots of the site offering these tickets between Birmingham New Street and Stafford and the site being willing to sell such a ticket in case it proves useful later (and before the problem is corrected, as it might be impossible to give this same evidence later on.) However, it is not yet clear exactly which ticket was used and how it was purchased.

 

[Fare-Cop]

In this particular case I agree with gray1404 and others on this very important point

we need further information from them first. I see that a couple of members above have asked the OP a couple of times which ticket they have purchased but the OP has not yet provided this information. It might be worth taking screen shots of the site offering these tickets between Birmingham New Street and Stafford and the site being willing to sell such a ticket in case it proves useful later (and before the problem is corrected, as it might be impossible to give this same evidence later on.) However, it is not yet clear exactly which ticket was used and how it was purchased.

In many cases, I am not saying this is one, but misuse of Swift cards has been a particular problem, is well-kown and is pursued with some vigour by XC and others.

The OP needs to provide accurate answers to the questions raised by other posters in order that any realistic conclusions can be drawn.

 

[Sam6o]

Could the OP please advise how they purchased the ticket they were using on the day of travel? Did they purchase it online, using the same site as a screenshots provided above, and enter Stafford as either their origin or destination station? Do you have any confirmation emails/screen shots from an online account or receipts relating to your purchase?

If so, there is an argument that XC should have accepted the ticket and that the customer had a valid ticket because it was being used in conjunction with a valid "itinerary" . I use the word itinerary loosely there as I see the site above will not tie you to a specific train but does seem to allow you to select 2 stations and then purchase a ticket valid for unlimited travel between them. If so, XC seriously need to drop this action against the passenger and take the matter up internally within the rail industry with Network West Midlands.

As the OP has experienced, XC has passed the matter to their contractor called Transport Investigations Limited. This company has a dreadful reputation and fail to listen to sense and reason. They ignore anything offered in mitigation by passengers and send the same standard worded letters to just about everyone they correspond with. Their general line is that they see no reason why the matter cannot proceed for prosecution. Their attitude on the phone is disgusting too.

Therefore, the OP should not be too alarmed if they receive and continue to receive such letters. They should continue to respond to them repeating themselves (yes, I say repeating what you might have already told them) that they wish to settle this matter and offer anything in mitigation. When the OP receives another letter from TIL feel free to post it here (with personal information removed) and we can help you draft a suitable reply.

Once the OP answers the questions I posted above at the start of this post, we will be able to look at any other action that can be taken. I know it is easy for me to say but please, try not to worry, there is help here for you as you go though this process - it is normal for it to take a little while to sort out so hang in there.

Hey and thank you for your reply.

To clarify, I did not purchase a ticket for travel on the specific date as I was under the impression (due to misinformation and i guess my own stupidity) that my Swift pass (which is a oyster type of card) that i pay arount £80 a month for covered me through to Stafford City. I pay an aditional charge each month to use the train through to Staffordshire county.

I only ever travel from Cannock to Birmingham for work purposes.
I live in Staffordshire countey (Cannock) and as mentioned above, i was under the impression that my pass was valid to Stafford (as it is infact a part of Staffordshire).

Another member has pointed out that this is not the case and I absolutley hold my hands up to acknowledge i was not aware of this.

Thank you for pointing out what I have discovered is accurate with TIL. Wooden letters and very little acknowledgement in regards to my inital letter.

I will gladly post any further letters (I expect one will arrive tomorrow) and any assistance in drafting a reply will be greatly appreciated.

As noted above, on two occasions I have apologised profusely for this matter and offered to pay any relevant fines regarding this.

My main concern regarding this whole matter of course is the aspect of court and criminal record, but also:-

The actions of the crew member on XC train. I fail to understand why I was declined to purchase a ticket
And why i recieved a "free" ticket once oir conversation had concluded.

Furthermore from review of some of the previous posts of this nature regarding TIL. I note that some people have had letter a few days after their train issues. I heard nothing for weeks, which makes me unsure as to why that was?

Given the content of the letter, I am left wandering if there is a discrepency in mine vs XC recolection of events.

I will post a picture of the second letter shortly

Many thanks

 

[Sam6o]

Please see copy of second letter

Thanks

 

[gray1404]

I am familiar with Swift pass and thank you for explaining more detail to me. Now we need to know exactly which ticket was held on your Swift pass as so many can be loaded to it. Does that makes sense? So, in other words how much are you pay per month? Please give the exact amount (not a rounded figure) and where did you purchase its from? For example, a ticket office or online?

Also, what led you to believe it was valid to Stafford? I know you say you thought it was valid throughout the county of Staffordshire. What led you to believe this? I am not having a go in asking you this question but its really important we work out if the railway company/or similar organisation selling these tickets made a false representation and gave you incorrect information.

Could you please go to this website https://www.networkwestmidlands.com/tickets/#/ and do a search in order to find the exact ticket and price that you have been paying for?

The Swift pass is just the medium, a smartcard, by which the ticket is delivered. Trying to establish exactly what ticket was on your smart card.

 

[Sam6o]

He

thanks again for responding, I apologise about the amount of time it is taking to respond.

So after some digging, the exact ticket that I have is “Monthly DirectDebit ntrain Zones 1-5 (All Zones)”.

To which I pay £74.60

The confusion comes straight from when I first purchased the ticket.
For a bit of context, I recently moved back to the Midlands from 5 years in London around August last year, I visited the ticket office in Birmingham new street in order to buy a ticket to which I was told they were now electric (SWIFT) and that I had to apply for this online, however in the interim I could purchase a weekly rail pass from the office.
I did so and asked where this could take me to/from and I recall the agent stating you can go as far as Rugeley and Stafford and straight through to Birmingham international.

Also I asked that when purchasing online what ticket I should buy, and I was advised the ALL ZONES ticket, this would allow me the same freedom as the weekly paper ticket I purchased.

I have today received another letter (as advised previously) and this one states further details as expected, however one thing that has truly took me back, is that note to states that in the XC agents notes it does not say that I offered to pay the rail fare.

This is a complete lie. I stood the whole time whilst we completed the handwritten notes and I read this back with my own eyes and signed the paper, and on said paper there were notes stating that I offered to pay the fare and I had the means to do so.

It is evident that :- A. XC are lying about this and trying to put me in a worse position than I am already, or B. they are twisting things.

I need to draft a response though to TIL as soon as possible and would very much like to bring this to a close(as I keep telling them). Any assistance that you can give in regards to drafting a suitable reply or a letter will be greatly appreciated.

In regards to the above blatant lie RE the handwritten note, this is the least of my concerns at the moment, I will raise this under separate cover through to XC and the ombudsman for independent review. My main concern at the moment is to bring this to a close by paying an applicable fine.

Thanks in advance

 

[WesternLancer]

Please see copy of second letter

Thanks

My hunch here is that you are going to enter the 'vortex' of dealing with TIL - so advice would be to engage with them in writing (easier than trying to record phone conversations in terms of written proof) and stick with this forum for advice, including posting drafts of replies you may want to send for people to comment on.

Obv now also full familiarize yourself with Swift card rules / T&Cs etc so you are aware of what you are buying vs what you think you might be getting for the money - and also work out if other types of ticket, including old style paper options, might be better. Also be aware that you can probably buy add on tickets if you intend to travel beyond the boundary of your swift card before you get on the train, and again I'm sure people here will offer advice.

Good luck with it, it sounds like you made an unfortunate error so it's a case of trying to help you minimise the consequences of that.

 

[30907]

The actions of the crew member on XC train. I fail to understand why I was declined to purchase a ticket
And why i recieved a "free" ticket once oir conversation had concluded.

The crew member refused to sell a ticket because they suspected you of attempting to evade a fare by travelling with an invalid ticket.
The free ticket allowed you to complete your journey (one way only?) without further difficulty.

 

[Fare-Cop]

The crew member refused to sell a ticket because they suspected you of attempting to evade a fare by travelling with an invalid ticket.
The free ticket allowed you to complete your journey (one way only?) without further difficulty.

That appears to be the crux of the matter so far as being reported is concerned and as 30907 identifies, the 'free ticket' is generally issued for the traveller to show any other revenue staff after you had been reported, so as not to be inconvenienced further. This also acts as a one way pass in place of any ticket that may have been retained.

'I was read my rights' is American jargon, but it seems that you were interviewed under caution by a PACE trained Revenue Protection Inspector and a brief contemporaneous written note interview was conducted by her. That inspector's report will have been sent to the Train Operating Company staff office where it will have been assessed and it seems has now been passed on to TIL as their Prosecuting Agents for further action.

As the OP has experienced, XC has passed the matter to their contractor called Transport Investigations Limited. This company has a dreadful reputation and fail to listen to sense and reason. They ignore anything offered in mitigation by passengers and send the same standard worded letters to just about everyone they correspond with. Their general line is that they see no reason why the matter cannot proceed for prosecution. Their attitude on the phone is disgusting too.

My hunch here is that you are going to enter the 'vortex' of dealing with TIL - so advice would be to engage with them in writing (easier than trying to record phone conversations in terms of written proof) and stick with this forum for advice, including posting drafts of replies you may want to send for people to comment on.

A number of posters have made their opinions of this process very clear over many threads and whilst it is a good idea to seek some help in understanding the procedure and what may happen, it is also important to remember that these forums only provide voluntary suggestions. As posters here, we do not have the benefit of seeing whatever 'evidence' it is that the prosecutors believe provides them with a sufficiently strong case to continue to Court.

Contrary to comments made on here a few times, it is staff from TIL who are the prosecutors who present these cases at any Court hearing. It is they who you need to continue to engage with further to see if this matter can be disposed of.
​

Good luck with it, it sounds like you made an unfortunate error so it's a case of trying to help you minimise the consequences of that.

I agree with WesternLancer's final comment and without sight of all of the facts, it would be foolish for me to comment further on the case, but if TIL are not minded to dispose of this matter without Court action and if they do issue a Summons, I very strongly suggest that you speak with a qualified Lawyer who is experience in criminal matters.

This need not cost a great deal, many Solicitors specialising in criminal law will give a brief initial consultation either free of charge, or for a very small fee.

 

[Sam6o]

Hey all,

Thank you for your responses. It is greatly appreiated.

I have drafted this response email that I inted to send in the coming days.

Would you mind giving it a read and providing some feedback?

You will note I have emitted the details regarding the staffs handwritten note RE offering to buy a ticket. I am confident that this was written on the paper that i was more than happy to purchse a ticket and had the means to do so. But i dont feel that pushing this will work in my favoir at all.
Additional to this I could also push for the CCTV the staff was wearing under the data information act, but this is surely going to throw petrol on thd fire....

Thanks so much in advance.


Dear

Thank you for your letter dated 11th February 2020 in response to my email dated 08th February 2020.

I thank you for explaining and responding to my comments in my previous correspondence.

It has become clear following personal investigation regarding my SWIFT pass that the route that I pay for on a monthly basis is not infact covered through to Stafford.

It seems that my route is only valid in certain areas of the West Midlands and Staffordshire, and in this instance Stafford City is not one of the said areas.

I sincerely apologise for this missunderstanding on my behalf, my intention was never to avoid paying a fare at anytime, and I truly understand the severity of my action on the 10th January 2020 and the bylaws in which I have not complied to and I apologise for any financial damage that Cross Country Trains have incurred due to this situation.

As I have previously mentioned, I only use my rail pass for the one journey between Cannock and to Birmingham New Street. On this one solitary occasion when I travelled through to Stafford it is a clear misunderstanding on my behalf of the validility of my rail pass between the travelled stations.

I sincerely apologise for my actions and I can assure that I will absolutley never use my rail pass beyond its permitted use ever again. I will ensure that any future occasions whereby I am required to travel within local area near to where I use my rail pass, I will ensure that I fully research the ticket requirements ahead of the journey and purchase the ticket(s) well in advance.

I would like to resolve this matter as soon as possible to mitigate any further actions and as previously mentioned within my correspondence, I will be more than happy to pay the cost of the full fare, any applicable fines and adminstration costs that have been incured with view to close and resolve this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Yours Sincerely

 

[Fare-Cop]

Sam6o it is important that you remove your name from your draft letter

I'll comment on that draft in a separate message shortly

 

[Sam6o]

Sam6o it is important that you remove your name from your draft letter

I'll comment on that draft in a separate message shortly

Thank you

 

[Fare-Cop]

I will not re-write your letter, which is generally good by the way, but it always improves the chances of being successful if a letter is brief and to the point.

It is important that the letter is in your own words and that it conveys only the following;

1. a brief explanation of your misunderstanding concerning the validity of your ticket,
2. an apology to the TOC and the staff involved for the work caused,
3. an undertaking not to repeat the previously unknown error
4. A commitment to pay the fare due plus all of the reasonable costs that the company have incurred in dealing with this matter

So, your letter does address all of these points, but is a bit too 'wordy' I think,

Good luck

 

[some bloke]

I have today received another letter (as advised previously) and this one....states that in the XC agents notes it does not say that I offered to pay the rail fare. ... I read this back with my own eyes and signed the paper...there were notes stating that I offered to pay the fare and I had the means to do so.

Could mentioning that to the prosecutor give them an additional reason to settle, or at least help his case by countering the idea that he was making a false claim about this?

It could be phrased along the lines of "I seem to have a clear memory that...".

 

[6Gman]

Hey all,

It seems that my route is only valid in certain areas of the West Midlands and Staffordshire, and in this instance Stafford City is not one of the said areas.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Yours Sincerely

I would suggest rephrasing this along the lines of "My (mistaken) understanding was that the ticket was valid to Stafford but I have now learnt that this is not the case". You might also want to add something like "Indeed when I first enquired the impression given by a member of staff was that it would be valid as far as Stafford".

Oh, and Stafford isn't a city.

 

[some bloke]

I recall the agent stating you can go as far as Rugeley and Stafford and straight through to Birmingham international.

Also I asked that when purchasing online what ticket I should buy, and I was advised the ALL ZONES ticket, this would allow me the same freedom as the weekly paper ticket I purchased.

One option is to notify the operator of New Street of this misunderstanding, and tell the prosecutor that you have raised the issue (giving if possible the date and time that you asked). Whether you raise it as a formal complaint might depend on your degree of confidence as to exactly what was said, and may not be the best course - the operator and/or prosecutor might find it hard to believe the ticket seller could have made such an error.

A separate issue is that they might think you should have realised a ticket covering Stafford would be much more expensive. So you might very briefly address that (including the fact that you moved back to the area around the time you asked).