Light rail or tram proposals that never happened!

[Jorge Da Silva]

can anyone think of any tram proposals that never happened? Just seen an article about a Grimsby tramway system from 2002. If you can please provide details.

Here is the article i am talking about: https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsby-news/freshney-metro-great-coates-grimsby-1981386

A new futuristic metro system, a fleet of super trams and efficient rail links for North East Lincolnshire were set to end gridlock back in 2002.

The transport network would take in the suburbs of Cleethorpes, a new-look Grimsby dockland and be linked to Immingham, along Pelham Road.

​

Commuters and shoppers were to be urged to hop on the Freshney Metro tram and leave their cars at home under the revolutionary transport plan.

It was claimed the Freshney Metro would be "expensive but feasible" by council bosses and it was heralded by the Grimsby Telegraph with the headline: "Goodbye to gridlock, at last". But 16 years on, there is still no sign of the plan.

 

[Ianno87]

Portsmouth/Solent
Bristol
Merseytram

In Manchester, a Wythenshawe to Middleton Monorail


Plus bits of existing networks that never happened:
Tramlink to Crystal Palace

 

[Chalky2583]

I literally live in Grimsby. The transport system here is terrible so there’s no wonder that never happened.
stagecoach operate here but majority of their services are subsidised by the council because they don’t bring any money in

 

[AutoKratz]

Around 2005 / 6 the Tees Valley Metro was supposed to use Tram-Trains, it got downgraded to diesel trains, then got canned entirely.

 

[SteveM70]

Leeds Supertram. Dread to think how much was spent on that

 

[Randomer]

The Leeds Super tram proposals come to mind. Turned down twice in 1990's and early 2000's, given go-ahead once which then got withdrawn when the funding couldn't be made to match what was wanted.

The project has now had bids for government funding turned down twice, once in the mid-1990s and again at the end of 2005. The latter is despite provisional approval in 2001, part of a scheme to increase light rail use in the UK by 50% over the following decade. Low-cost guided buses running in the same corridor are now being actively pursued.

The government insisted that the cost of the project should not exceed £500 million, and at the end of 2005 called for the project to be halted despite the advanced nature of procurement, having learned that it might cost twice the agreed sum. A total of 75% of the funding was required from the public sector, with contributions from central government, the government-sponsored but independently-thinking passenger transport executive, and the city council. The balance would be met from the private sector.

Railway Technology Description

You could probably add the proposal for an underground system in the 1950's approximately along the path of the inner ring road, which was much closer to a pre-metro tram system than London Underground or Glasgow.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I literally live in Grimsby. The transport system here is terrible so there’s no wonder that never happened.
stagecoach operate here but majority of their services are subsidised by the council because they don’t bring any money in

I live in Cleethorpes so i can relate. There was a consultation recently on the bus services as part of the national bus strategy. Bus service improvement plan is expected in October this year.

 

[Chalky2583]

Oh really, what does that entail?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Oh really, what does that entail?

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ce-to-local-authorities-and-bus-operators.pdf here is the link to the document about the BSIP that each LTA (for Grimsby thats NE Lincs Council) and the national bus strategy. https://assets.publishing.service.g...-Better-national-bus-strategy-for-England.pdf

but back on topic. I was surpised a tram system was proposed in grimsby at all. Even suggested going to Immingham not far from the former tramway which closed in 1961.

 

[Purple Orange]

Portsmouth/Solent
Bristol
Merseytram

In Manchester, a Wythenshawe to Middleton Monorail


Plus bits of existing networks that never happened:
Tramlink to Crystal Palace

A monorail? When was that proposed? It would be quite interesting to see, but the metrolink network has this market cornered for future developments.

 

[hacman]

In the early 2000s Nexus touted Project Orpheus, which was an ambition to turn the Tyne and Wear Metro into something more akin to Manchester's Metrolink.

Some of the routes were poorly thought out, and Nexus at the time were not exactly doing the best job of looking after what they already had, so the plans eventually fizzled out into nothing; with the entirety of what was delivered amounting to some reports, press releases and badly designed maps of what the system may have ended up looking like.

 

[eastwestdivide]

The initial Sheffield tram-train proposals in 2008 were for the Sheffield-Penistone-Huddersfield line
e.g. https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2008/08/05-northern-rail-tram-train.html

Penistone line is chosen for £24m tram trains trial

NEW-style tram trains could be running by the end of 2010 on a line in the Pennines as part of the first phase of a £24 million trial.
The trains, which are used on many routes in Germany, will be sharing tracks with conventional trains on the 37-mile Penistone line, which runs between Sheffield and Huddersfield, via Barnsley.
...
The aim is to evaluate the potential for running tram trains on main rail routes which could then link into street-running systems such as Sheffield’s Supertram network...

 

[The exile]

Looking at the "Today's railways" reviews of 1987 - 1990 - the following were mentioned as "proposed" (first mention only) - in addition to those that actually made it.

1987: Bristol, Glasgow, Leeds, Southampton
1988: Aberdeen, Cardiff, Cambridge, Cleveland, Mid Devon, Glasgow, Hampshire, Liverpool, Norwich, Stoke-on-Trent, Gloucester, Newcastle Quayside (the last two being "tourist tramways")
1989: Dundee, Preston, Hull, Chester, Swindon, Reading, Plymouth, Belfast
1990: Kingston-upon-Thames, Chatham, Chelmsford, Milton Keynes, Southend, North London.
1990 mentioned as "already shelved": Aberdeen, Bedford, Gateshead, Leicester, Swansea, St Albans

How many of these ever got beyond Councillor XYZ mentioning at one meeting: "We're thinking it would be nice to bring the trams back", I'm not sure

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

The buses in Grimsby are quite good, I use them every day, and have never been to a town with a cheaper day rider. Ofcourse there aren't enough 1, 2, 12, 6, 7, buses late or early, but demand is low anyway, likewise there aren't many towns nearby to warrent long distance buses, as the 51 is always running empty, so Stagecoach aren't too bad.

I've heard the story about the tram a few years before and did research. I came to the conclusion that no such Freshney Metro plan ever existed, there's no original article, council discussions, maps, or anything other than the Grimsby Telegraph many years later, not exactly a reliable source.

Another tramway proposed by the Media was a Hull Supertram the BBC made up for no reason. I'll have a look for it now.
Here it is... http://www.bbc.co.uk/humber/content/articles/2008/10/22/light_rail_feature.shtml

 

[greyman42]

I remember some years back that someone came up with an absolute fantasy for York.

 

[stuu]

Looking at the "Today's railways" reviews of 1987 - 1990 - the following were mentioned as "proposed" (first mention only) - in addition to those that actually made it.

1987: Bristol, Glasgow, Leeds, Southampton
1988: Aberdeen, Cardiff, Cambridge, Cleveland, Mid Devon, Glasgow, Hampshire, Liverpool, Norwich, Stoke-on-Trent, Gloucester, Newcastle Quayside (the last two being "tourist tramways")
1989: Dundee, Preston, Hull, Chester, Swindon, Reading, Plymouth, Belfast
1990: Kingston-upon-Thames, Chatham, Chelmsford, Milton Keynes, Southend, North London.
1990 mentioned as "already shelved": Aberdeen, Bedford, Gateshead, Leicester, Swansea, St Albans

How many of these ever got beyond Councillor XYZ mentioning at one meeting: "We're thinking it would be nice to bring the trams back", I'm not sure

I remember seeing an insert in one of the railway magazines about 1990 which included all the (allegedly) realistic schemes, most of which never saw the light of day. The ones I remember most clearly were Bristol, Birmingham and Edinburgh, the latter two featuring underground sections in the city centres. From memory the Edinburgh map showed an east-west line on the surface along Princes Street, as built, and also a north-south route including 5 or 6 underground stops. The Birmingham plans had three lines meeting in the city centre, with, I think, two of them going underground. It was quite professionally done with lots of quotes from engineers, councillors and MPs.

Fairly sure it wasn't the April 1st edition!

 

[Ianno87]

A monorail? When was that proposed? It would be quite interesting to see, but the metrolink network has this market cornered for future developments.

In the late 1970s I believe, after Picc Vic was cancelled. Eventually morphed into what we now know as Metrolink.

 

[Revaulx]

A monorail? When was that proposed? It would be quite interesting to see, but the metrolink network has this market cornered for future developments.

Mid 60s: https://issuu.com/cyberbadger/docs/mrts-vol2

 

[Purple Orange]

Mid 60s: https://issuu.com/cyberbadger/docs/mrts-vol2

Thanks for sharing. That’s rather fascinating. It goes to show how long the gestation period is for developing a metro from concept to delivery.

 

[Lemmy282]

Mid 1970's proposal for an overhead Minitram system in Sheffield city centre, got a booklet for it somewhere.

Nigel L

 

[Vespa]

Merseytram 2008 was proposed to tie in with the Capital of Culture event, it failed because the council faffed around too much and Alistair Darling killed it by withdrawing funding and giving it to Manchester instead, Merseytram have brought loads tram tracks as well.

There 3 lines proposed
Speke Airport- liverpool
Prescot - Liverpool
Kirkby - Liverpool
All linked with a loop line round Albert Dock.

Manchester massively expanded their network at Liverpool's expense.

 

[gordonthemoron]

wasn't there supposed to be a tram down Oxford Street in London, and also another cross river tram line further west?

 

[Vespa]

wasn't there supposed to be a tram down Oxford Street in London, and also another cross river tram line further west?

Yes a stand alone scheme with the eventual aspiration of linking it all up with Croydon tram system.

Fallen by the wayside like many grandiose schemes.

 

[WatcherZero]

There was supposed to be a Monrorail funded by Peel from the Trafford Centre to Manchester City Centre as part of their planning permission, they weaselled out of it by prevaricating until the planning obligation expired.

 

[Vespa]

There was supposed to be a Monrorail funded by Peel from the Trafford Centre to Manchester City Centre as part of their planning permission, they weaselled out of it by prevaricating until the planning obligation expired.

Just as well, replaced by a much better scheme, the tram extension fits better.

 

[Ianno87]

Merseytram 2008 was proposed to tie in with the Capital of Culture event, it failed because the council faffed around too much and Alistair Darling killed it by withdrawing funding and giving it to Manchester instead,

Pretty sure that's not true - the Metrolink "big bang" hit the buffers at the same time precisely because the overall cost of the scheme went up and Darling wouldn't increase the central Government contribution to the cost.

That's why Phase 3 was split into Phase 3a and 3b - so that 3a (to Cholton/Droylsden/ plus Oldham/Rochdale without the town centres) fit within the available funding.

 

[Vespa]

Pretty sure that's not true - the Metrolink "big bang" hit the buffers at the same time precisely because the overall cost of the scheme went up and Darling wouldn't increase the central Government contribution to the cost.

That's why Phase 3 was split into Phase 3a and 3b - so that 3a (to Cholton/Droylsden/ plus Oldham/Rochdale without the town centres) fit within the available funding.

Yet they got the funding and not Merseyside in spite of Merseytram campaigning for a share of the pie.

 

[stuu]

wasn't there supposed to be a tram down Oxford Street in London, and also another cross river tram line further west?

Only ever vaguely down Oxford Street. The Cross River Tram would have run from St Pancras down Kingsway to Elephant and Castle and then split to Peckham and Brixton. It got to fairly detailed design and consultation before being abandoned by the wonderful new mayor in 2008

TfL also abandoned the Uxbridge Road project which would have run from Shepherds Bush all the way to Uxbridge. That would have led to far too many car parking spaces being lost so couldn't possibly be delivered

 

[SargeNpton]

Over the decades there have been several suggestions that Northampton should once again have a tram system. Some trying to replicate and expand on the network that closed in 1934 and others just limited to the town centre area. Here's one of the latter from around 2005...

 

[Dr Day]

So why have none of these got off the ground? Simply lack of density of population and employment for sufficient critical mass for a financially viable route? Few examples of success without the advantage of a former rail corridor into a city centre to deliver reliable attractive journey time benefits without impacting road traffic.