Little Gem buses has ceased operating

[weastebusdepot]

That is because CEC have been going through a process of revising subsidy criteria and therefore there was obviously positive dialogue between the Council and Go Goodwin’s - the service originally operated on the Go Goodwins licence before going over to Little Gem and the latest change was registered some weeks in advance of 17th April with the service reducing from a fully subsidised to a commercial service with financial support.

The 391/392 had always been under the same licence. The company was called 'Go Goodwins (Coaches) Limited' then after a couple of months of being named 'Mayne of Manchester' became 'Little Gem Bus Company' in October 2022. As of last weekend it had a licence for 40 vehicles from an operating centre at the former Mayne depot in Clayton.

The new operator of the 391/392 is 'Go Goodwins Group Limited' previously known as 'Wrigley's Coaches' originally of Irlam then part of Chesters Coaches of Walkden until they sold it to Goodwins in February 2021. Currently it shows as having a licence for 25 vehicles and an operating centre on Lyntown Industrial Estate in Eccles, although as indicated further up this thread there has been an agreement to sell the property to Rotala.

 

[northwichcat]

I think @Djb1 could be right.

Monday and Tuesday one Orion and one Metrocity tracked on the 391/392. Today it was two Orions and no Metrocities.

Vehicles – 391 - Stockport - Macclesfield via Hazel Grove, Poynton, Kerridge – bustimes.org

 

[Ste37]

PSV licence check shows Little Gem's PSV operators licence is still valid and it is still active as a limited company.

 

[Man of Kent]

The 391/392 had always been under the same licence. The company was called 'Go Goodwins (Coaches) Limited' then after a couple of months of being named 'Mayne of Manchester' became 'Little Gem Bus Company' in October 2022. As of last weekend it had a licence for 40 vehicles from an operating centre at the former Mayne depot in Clayton.

The new operator of the 391/392 is 'Go Goodwins Group Limited' previously known as 'Wrigley's Coaches' originally of Irlam then part of Chesters Coaches of Walkden until they sold it to Goodwins in February 2021. Currently it shows as having a licence for 25 vehicles and an operating centre on Lyntown Industrial Estate in Eccles, although as indicated further up this thread there has been an agreement to sell the property to Rotala.

The Little Gem registration was PC0005236/160, cancelled on 18 April. The Go Goodwins registration is PC0002043/1, which has a start date of 17 April.

All information from the search facility on https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/search/find-registered-local-bus-services/

 

[Tetchytyke]

But fuel surcharges have been applied by a number of councils up and down the country as a response to the doubling of fuel prices.

I have sympathy with operators when this happens, but there is a large element of having one’s cake and eating it. Operators wouldn’t re-negotiate tenders if fuel prices halved, after all.

 

[M803UYA]

I have sympathy with operators when this happens, but there is a large element of having one’s cake and eating it. Operators wouldn’t re-negotiate tenders if fuel prices halved, after all.

TfGM's own contract rules are fairly clear on the room for price renegotiation in the event of cost fluctuations. My question would be why haven't TfGM tried to assist the operator, within that framework? It's fairly evident the relationship between TfGM and Goodwins has broken down completely.

Bus tendering

TfGM tenders for contracts for the provision of general network bus services, school services and Local Link (flexi) services.

tfgm.com

https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93idf4jq/9e5CY9Eh8W0kGcAUc4gAa/f294417ba528ec1a52806e8f2f2e0797/PQQ-subsidised-services-2015.doc

CONTRACT VARIATIONS

TfGM shall be entitled in its sole discretion to require reasonable changes to the Contract, including changes to these Conditions of Contract and permanent or temporary variations, increases or decreases to the scope and/or execution of the Services. The Operator may request a change to the Contract in order to comply with any applicable safety or statutory requirements. TfGM shall not unreasonably withhold or delay consent to the change.

I have no doubt the withdrawal of services will end up before the traffic commissioner at a public inquiry - so ultimately Goodwins will have a much smaller business as a result of what has happened. In which case it will cost Goodwins the services of Backhouse Jones to ensure they remain in business.

 

[Tetchytyke]

TfGM's own contract rules are fairly clear on the room for price renegotiation in the event of cost fluctuations. My question would be why haven't TfGM tried to assist the operator, within that framework?

I’m not so sure it’s quite that clear cut. It’s notable that TfGM state they have two types of tender- one with revenue risk, one without.

Clearly if there’s a tender where TfGM are essentially paying a management fee on a cost-plus basis (I’d assume schools contracts are mostly in this category) there’s more wriggle room if operating costs change dramatically in either direction. But sensible contracts of this form will already define both the cost and the plus value and these definitions will take into account staffing and fuel.

However I can certainly understand why TfGM would be reticent about renegotiating any tender issued on a revenue risk basis. That risk should be priced into any tender offer and subsequently changing the tender would be unfair on other operators who did price the risk more appropriately and lost the tender process as a result.

 

[northwichcat]

TfGM's own contract rules are fairly clear on the room for price renegotiation in the event of cost fluctuations. My question would be why haven't TfGM tried to assist the operator, within that framework? It's fairly evident the relationship between TfGM and Goodwins has broken down completely.

It should perhaps be noted that most of the Little Gem TfGM contracts started after COVID and the war in Ukraine. It's also worth remembering fuel is now significantly cheaper than it was at one point last year. It might be different if Little Gem had started operating 5 year contracts in December 2019.

 

[WatcherZero]

Indeed Little Gems seem to have based their costings on continuing to receive government Co-Vid support, when that program was announced to be ending in June this year they went with a begging bowl to the local authority asking for a contract renegotiation.

 

[WibbleWobble]

Indeed Little Gems seem to have based their costings on continuing to receive government Co-Vid support, when that program was announced to be ending in June this year they went with a begging bowl to the local authority asking for a contract renegotiation.

As Little Gem ran tendered services, Covid support money would have gone to the local authority, not the operator (same as Bus Services Operator Grant, as it used a similar system). It would have been up to TfGM to pay that forward.

 

[WatcherZero]

All Covid bus support money after the very first tranche (which was distributed directly by the DFT) was distributed by local authorities, government even let them choose their own method for distributing their geographic allocation.

 

[M803UYA]

It's also worth remembering fuel is now significantly cheaper than it was at one point last year. It might be different if Little Gem had started operating 5 year contracts in December 2019.

I agree with you there. I run a small diesel van as personal transport so I have watched the price of my fuel become slightly eye watering over the last 18 months. The buses I drive are also diesel powered (Ford Transits) and I'd be filling up from a quarter tank twice weekly. Cost of doing so jumped from £85-90 to £110-120. However we were on annual contract with West Yorkshire for SEN school work, so the June 2022 tenders which went in reflected diesel prices at £2.00ppl - all operators quoted higher.

It's strange how TfGM don't want to continue the relationship with Goodwins, they're not exactly an operator that's just begun working for the authority. But evidently that relationship has soured to the point that it's ended.

 

[northwichcat]

It's strange how TfGM don't want to continue the relationship with Goodwins, they're not exactly an operator that's just begun working for the authority.

But they did sell their original operation to Diamond Bus and only started bidding for TfGM contracts again when they couldn't get any coach hire work due to COVID restrictions.

 

[Womar]

Diamond Bus have acquired all Little Gem buses and they are numbered 30700-30713.

Diamond Bus - Discussion - Page 257

Diamond Bus - Discussion - Page 257

wmbusphotos.com

Rotala have acquired the following buses from Go Goodwins (Little Gem):

30700-30702 & 30707-30713 are E200's originally new to London converted to single door format
30703-30706 are VDL SB180 / MCV Evolutions
All have been retrofitted to Euro 6 previously
30709 has already been paint in Diamond 2 Tone base colours & saw service with Little Gem before they ceased trading.

30700	LJ09KPA
30701	LJ09KPX
30702	LJ09KPO
30703	YJ62JWL
30704	YJ62JWF
30705	YJ62JXG
30706	YJ62JXW
30707	LJ09KOX
30708	LJ09KPE
30709	LJ09KPF
30710	YX59BYJ
30711	YX59BYP
30712	YX59BYM
30713	YX59BYN

They **may** see use at Diamond West Midlands short-term, as there will be a shortfall of vehicles in Manchester from 17th Sept 23 until early 2024 when Diamond NW commence operation of the 7 small TfGM franchises, sells a large proportion of the existing Bolton fleet to GNW & subsequent delays in Diamond's new Bee Network buses arriving. They will also now be ADL E200MMC's in lieu of Volvo B8RLE / MCV Evora's.

 

[Titfield]

But how does that work if the operator has ceased trading and no longer has any officers or employees?

Well he can still call the officers and tm to a PI to answer for their actions when the company was trading / the individuals were in post.

The individuals may think they have "got away with it" until they next apply for a licence.....

 

[M803UYA]

Well he can still call the officers and tm to a PI to answer for their actions when the company was trading / the individuals were in post.

The individuals may think they have "got away with it" until they next apply for a licence.....

The same people are continuing to operate on another licence. I can bet TfGM has reported the matter to the traffic commissioner, who will then call that remaining licence to a public inquiry along with the Little Gem licence. TfGM will have incurred costs in arranging replacement operators, not least the disruption the actions have caused them.

There was another application started in the Welsh traffic area which has now been withdrawn.

If I were Goodwins I'd be offering an undertaking to not operate any registered local bus services to the licence ahead of a public inquiry. I'd also be contacting the likes of Backhouse Jones who represent many operators who are called before the traffic commissioner ahead of the inquiry taking place. The previous appearances of others operators who've done this usually end up as a revocation of the licence.

There generally seems to be no issue with stopping running local bus services, but the traffic commissioner expects that process to be done with as much notice as possible. 12/24/36 hours is generally accepted as not being sufficient time. A plus point will be that Goodwins have made sure the drivers continue to have jobs (with Rotala) and the transfer from one to the other has been as smooth as possible. Even with this scenario, Goodwins would have been on the hook for the price difference between their original bid price for the contracts against the new contract price of a successful tenderer who'll have quoted higher due to the cost of fuel. The only issues are the ones which affect TfGM and the disruption to passengers which has been caused.

I'm sure the traffic commissioner will be very interested in what TfGM knew, and didn't know along with what the operator has told them during the meetings with their assigned contract manager. Such things would have been recorded, as would any emails sent to TfGM be available to the commissioner. I think we can be sure Goodwins would have retained copies of such communications as part of their 'defence'. I'd have certainly made sure of such things if it were my operation in this position.

 

[weastebusdepot]

The TfGM website has been at noon on Friday 28th April with the following notice:-

Following the tender process, on Wednesday 26 April, cover has been found for most services affected by the closure of Little Gem.

Below is the outcome of this process and updates on the affected services.

• 260 - will be operated by D&G from Tuesday 2 May 2023
• 261 - will be operated by D&G from Tuesday 2 May 2023
• 262 - will be operated by D&G from Tuesday 2 May 2023
• 280 - will be operated by Belle Vue from Monday 8 May 2023
• 288 - will be operated by Belle Vue from Monday 8 May 2023
• 336 - will continue to be operated by First (as is currently the case)
• 337 - will continue to be operated by First (as is currently the case)
• 389 - will continue to be operated by First (as is currently the case)
• 375 - no replacement operator was found but TfGM are continuing to look at alternative provision
• 44 - no replacement operator was found and no immediate replacement is planned
• 84 - no replacement operator was found and no immediate replacement is planned
• 217 - no replacement operator was found and no immediate replacement is planned

Where cover was found, services will operate to existing timetables as shown on-stop.

TfGM is continuing to explore options relating to the 375 service after no operator bid for it and is working to limit the impact on residents in Upper Hazel Grove, Hawk Green and Mellor in particular, as they are most affected due to a lack of alternative bus or other public transport services.

The bid to replace 44, 84 or 217 bus services was more than £500,000 higher than the previous contracts (for the 13-week period). As such, and with a range of alternative options for users of these services, no immediate replacement is planned.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Will this be Belle Vue's first dabble with all-day public stage carriage services, or have they operated non-school routes in the past (beyond just the Go North West strike buses)?

 

[northwichcat]

Will this be Belle Vue's first dabble with all-day public stage carriage services, or have they operated non-school routes in the past (beyond just the Go North West strike buses)?

I was just thinking what vehicles do they have, that aren't coaches, deckers or yellow school buses?

Interesting D&G are taking on the 260, 261 and 262, rather than the 288 (which part duplicates their 88).

 

[weastebusdepot]

Will this be Belle Vue's first dabble with all-day public stage carriage services, or have they operated non-school routes in the past (beyond just the Go North West strike buses)?

They ran the 277 Trafford General Hospital - Gorse Hill which was a TfGM tendered service. I have a timetable for it dated 27/02/05 and as I recall it was run with plain white Plaxton Pointer Darts with Belle Vue fleetnames. What will be interesting to see is what vehicles they will use on the 280 given that the tender specification is for a vehicle no taller than 9 foot due to the bridge on Woodhouse Lane.

In other news, today was due to be the day Go Goodwins move out of their Eccles base since Diamond Bus North West move in next week. No idea where they have moved to though.

 

[Djb1]

They ran the 277 Trafford General Hospital - Gorse Hill which was a TfGM tendered service. I have a timetable for it dated 27/02/05 and as I recall it was run with plain white Plaxton Pointer Darts with Belle Vue fleetnames. What will be interesting to see is what vehicles they will use on the 280 given that the tender specification is for a vehicle no taller than 9 foot due to the bridge on Woodhouse Lane.

In other news, today was due to be the day Go Goodwins move out of their Eccles base since Diamond Bus North West move in next week. No idea where they have moved to though.

They also ran the 246 altrincham - bowdon service for a few years.

 

[Goldfish62]

Well he can still call the officers and tm to a PI to answer for their actions when the company was trading / the individuals were in post.

The individuals may think they have "got away with it" until they next apply for a licence.....

Indeed. There is no escape in that respect.

 

[Greybeard33]

Well he can still call the officers and tm to a PI to answer for their actions when the company was trading / the individuals were in post.

The individuals may think they have "got away with it" until they next apply for a licence.....

According to the Companies House website, Wesley Goodwin is the sole active director of both the Little Gem Bus Company Ltd and Go Goodwins Group Ltd. The other past directors all resigned from both companies some years ago.

 

[Goldfish62]

According to the Companies House website, Wesley Goodwin is the sole active director of both the Little Gem Bus Company Ltd and Go Goodwins Group Ltd. The other past directors all resigned from both companies some years ago.

It doesn't matter. If the TC thinks it relevant any of them can be called up.

 

[Greybeard33]

It doesn't matter. If the TC thinks it relevant any of them can be called up.

I doubt that it would be relevant, since the most recent director resignations from Little Gem were in 2017.

 

[Titfield]

I doubt that it would be relevant, since the most recent director resignations from Little Gem were in 2017.

The TC could ask them to appear at a PI if there were concerns that they were still involved in the business and acting as either shadow or de facto directors.

 

[northwichcat]

What are they currently using on the 391 and 392? Not all journeys have tracked today and some that have suggest the ticket machine is programmed for YN07 EXK. I'm not sure if they'd actually put a decker out if they're hardly running any services now.

 

[Djb1]

What are they currently using on the 391 and 392? Not all journeys have tracked today and some that have suggest the ticket machine is programmed for YN07 EXK. I'm not sure if they'd actually put a decker out if they're hardly running any services now.

YN07EXK isn't with them anymore so it's defintely not that.

 

[SeanM1997]

Timetable for the 375 (D&G replacing Little Gem from 8 May 2023):

https://dgbus.co.uk/assets/375_2023-05-09.pdf

Services operate Monday-Saturday and will utilise one bus, with a driver break in Marple

 

[northwichcat]

An edit on bus times suggests Belle Vue have taken on the 3 Fiat minibuses. If that's true it solves the issue of what they'll use to operate the routes.

Given Little Gem are in administration, if those buses are seen as assets of Little Gem then the administrators could have sold them to recoup funds to pay creditors.

Little Gem operated a range of school and local bus services but has gone into administration.

New operators found for these school & local buses in Greater Manchester- but not all

Little Gem operated a range of school and local bus services in Greater Manchester but has gone into administration.

www.manchesterworld.uk

David Burrell on Flickr snapped one of the buses on the 392 today. A brand new Mayne livered Iveco bus!

Go Goodwins Iveco RE23CVA - Poynton

Go Goodwins Iveco/Ilesbus RE23CVA with Mayne Livery in London Road South, Poynton on the 3rd May 2023.

www.flickr.com

Since 14 April a company called Go Goodwins Clwyd Ltd has existed, registered at Halendy Garage, Rhewl, Holywell, Wales, CH8 9HW.

It seems to belong to the son of Wesley Goodwin and the directors don't include anyone from Little Gem: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/13195575