Liverpool Disruption 28 Feb 2017 - RAIB report released 30/11/17

[jindivik]

I do. I think the structural rigidity of modern rolling stock is rather good. We have had accidents where trains have been thrown all over the place, e.g. Potters Bar, Grayrigg, even Ladbroke Grove, with nevertheless pretty good maintenance of the integrity of the passenger compartment.

I wonder what the families of those killed in your examples would think if you told them "the integrity of the passenger compartment was pretty good" ....... some trains may fare better than others, if all this junk came down on a Pendolino, how would that fare in comparison to a Pacer?

 

[duffield]

As mentioned above:
1.A SWT 455 of the same bodyshell design protected its occupants from a fully loaded cement mixer which would have had a far higher point loading than most of the rubble (much of it soil).
...

Do we know what height the cement mixer fell from? Obviously if it only fell from (say) 20 feet then its kinetic energy on impact would be considerably reduced (1/4) compared to the same mass and an 80 foot drop, so we may not be comparing like with like.

 

[Bald Rick]

If you were in a train and 200 tonnes fell on top of the carriage you were in, yes you "could" survive. I wouldn't fancy your chances, personally, and wouldn't choose to swap places with you, but yes you're right you "could".

Just the same, the 200 tonnes only "could have" fallen on top of one of the trains passing underneath every minute or so.

So that's alright then, right?

If 200 tonnes of rock fell in one split second, into say one or two square metres of train, then yes there 'could' have been fatalities. Like the cement mixer that fell on the track near Oxshott.

However it looks to me that the rock fell over a shortish period of time - perhaps 5-10 seconds - over a much wider area. The amount that would have fallen onto one specific point of a trai was such that the structural integrity of the train is likely to have held. Broken windows certainly, damaged train, yes, but probably not a collapse of the main structure. Yes, there could still have been fatalities, but in my view it is unlikely.

Therefore to suggest with certainty that there 'would' have been fatalities is just wrong.

Besides, what are RMT trying to gain from entering the debate?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Besides, what are RMT trying to gain from entering the debate?

Bearing in mind the political furoe over DOO..... That.

Wether they are right to do so under the circumstances is another matter

 

[eastdyke]

Where has 80ft come from?

I would say that 80 feet is a good approximation for some sections of the cutting. Not sure about this exact location.

There is a series of pictures here showing construction of the cutting in 1881 as part of the work to replace the original 2 track tunnel with the 4 track cutting.

Those more clever than I may well be able to match the locations in 1 or more of the pictures.

The pictures are from Science and Society Picture Library linked from post 2 in a thread titled 'Fourteen Tunnels to Lime Street' on yoliverpool website:

http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?8759-Fourteen-Tunnels-to-Lime-Street

The pictures are superb.

 

[QueensCurve]

Looking at the latest aerial image I would be shocked if it even opened before the middle of March. I think we are looking at minimum two weeks

The structural damage to the wall is immense and will take weeks to rebuild and secure as well as areas around it which will perhaps also need to be knocked down and rebuilt to strengthen

However they may open the furthest two lines sooner although again unlikely

Might they adopt a Barrow on Soar type solution of removing the loose material and netting what's left?

 

[D1009]

Where has 80ft come from?

The Network Rail tweet linked in post #101 states more than 10 metres, so presumably it's something between the two.

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailLIV

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I would say that 80 feet is a good approximation for some sections of the cutting. Not sure about this exact location.

I'd say the solid vertical rock cutting is about 10 meters high (I've seen that figure somewhere).
The wall of sandstone blocks above that, and the fill above/behind that, is what seems to have fallen.
From pictures, that maybe amounted to another 10 metres.
The debris looks more fill than wall.

Similar rock cuttings in Mersey Red Sandstone can be seen all over Merseyside.
Examples are:
- Olive Mount cutting, just east of the Edge Hill cutting.
- Thatto Heath cutting, on the Wigan NW line.
- stretches of the CLC route near Brunswick (now Merseyrail).
- virtually all the Merseyrail tunnel/station construction on both sides of the river, eg at James St or Green Lane.
- Northgate cutting/tunnels on the Holyhead line out of Chester.
It's also what Chester and Liverpool (Anglican) cathedrals are built of.

 

[AndrewE]

Deleted

 

[AndrewE]

Looking at the latest aerial image I would be shocked if it even opened before the middle of March. I think we are looking at minimum two weeks

The structural damage to the wall is immense and will take weeks to rebuild and secure as well as areas around it which will perhaps also need to be knocked down and rebuilt to strengthen

However they may open the furthest two lines sooner although again unlikely

I think the point was made earlier that the wall was not meant to be structural. It was a boundary wall (or the top bit was anyway) that has been exploited to raise the level of the adjacent land until it got overloaded and pushed out over the cutting.

Repairs in the short term could therefore be limited to pulling back and carting away as much of the infill as is necessary to leave a stable slope behind the wall/boundary and get trains running again, then presumably repairing the wall during possessions and putting a pallisade or similar fence back in.

It looked to me as though those excavators were pretty close to the top of loose material (that has already slipped once )... but maybe the telephoto lens just caused foreshortening of the view.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I wonder what the families of those killed in your examples would think if you told them "the integrity of the passenger compartment was pretty good" ....... some trains may fare better than others, if all this junk came down on a Pendolino, how would that fare in comparison to a Pacer?

That's a rather unnecessary remark. Since you don't know me, I'll point out that I would have enough compassion not to make such a remark to, say, the family of the old lady killed at Grayrigg. I would however, be pleased for every one of the rest of that train load of passengers that they (eventually in some cases - 30 serious injuries) all got home safely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Similar rock cuttings in Mersey Red Sandstone can be seen all over Merseyside.
Examples are:
- Olive Mount cutting, just east of the Edge Hill cutting.
- Thatto Heath cutting, on the Wigan NW line.
- stretches of the CLC route near Brunswick (now Merseyrail).
- virtually all the Merseyrail tunnel/station construction on both sides of the river, eg at James St or Green Lane.
- Northgate cutting/tunnels on the Holyhead line out of Chester.
It's also what Chester and Liverpool (Anglican) cathedrals are built of.

Aughton Park at the Liverpool end too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's a rather unnecessary remark. Since you don't know me, I'll point out that I would have enough compassion not to make such a remark to, say, the family of the old lady killed at Grayrigg. I would however, be pleased for every one of the rest of that train load of passengers that they (eventually in some cases - 30 serious injuries) all got home safely.

The performance of the Pendolino at Greyrigg was nothing short of amazing. With 2005-ish technology (they're getting on a bit now!) I don't see how we could have expected more. A fine piece of modern engineering, even if the seating layout could perhaps do with a bit of a tweak.

 

[Chris M]

A few years ago there was an incident where cement mixer fell on top of a SWTs 455, is that the last incident in the UK where debris/objects fell onto a train (having not been a result of been thrown)?

As mentioned above:
1.A SWT 455 of the same bodyshell design protected its occupants from a fully loaded cement mixer which would have had a far higher point loading than most of the rubble (much of it soil).
2. The speed limits are 30mph (3tracks) and 40mph (1track)

Do we know what height the cement mixer fell from? Obviously if it only fell from (say) 20 feet then its kinetic energy on impact would be considerably reduced (1/4) compared to the same mass and an 80 foot drop, so we may not be comparing like with like.

If 200 tonnes of rock fell in one split second, into say one or two square metres of train, then yes there 'could' have been fatalities. Like the cement mixer that fell on the track near Oxshott.

However it looks to me that the rock fell over a shortish period of time - perhaps 5-10 seconds - over a much wider area. The amount that would have fallen onto one specific point of a trai was such that the structural integrity of the train is likely to have held. Broken windows certainly, damaged train, yes, but probably not a collapse of the main structure. Yes, there could still have been fatalities, but in my view it is unlikely.

Therefore to suggest with certainty that there 'would' have been fatalities is just wrong.

Besides, what are RMT trying to gain from entering the debate?

In the accident at Oxshott (RAIB report), where the loaded cement mixer fell onto the passing train, there were six passengers injured, one seriously. The lorry driver was also injured.

36. Four of the five passengers travelling in the leading end of coach 6 were able to escape from the damaged part of the train without assistance. The fifth passenger was trapped. This person, a 60 year old male, sustained serious injuries including fractures to his lumbar vertebrae and hip. A further ten seats in coach 6 were affected by bodywork distortion or flying debris. None of these seats was occupied

The lorry weighed 25.6 tonnes and fell from a height of 10.5 metres above track level. Obviously the roof of the train was higher than this but I haven't been able to quicky find how high a Class 455 is. The RAIB calculate the energy imparted in this accident:

91. b. the kinetic energy imparted by the lorry as it struck the roof of the train was approximately 2,300 kJ

They also note that the current standard requires trains to withstand the energy of a 100kg concrete block being dropped from 3 metres.

31. The impact of the lorry demolished a 14.3 m section of parapet which fell from the bridge. Most of the brickwork fell onto the cutting slope, but some sections struck the roof and left-hand side of coach 5 of the train which was passing beneath the bridge at the same time. Within this coach, bags were knocked from overhead luggage racks, although there was no penetration of the passenger area or injury caused.

All this says to me that had a train, of similar construction to the Class 455, been beneath the material here when it fell that injuries would be possible but fatalities unlikely.

If the RMT want to use it in their campaign I think they need to say exactly what the guard did on said service without any exaggerations or claiming the guard could have done something which they didn't choose to do or need to do.

My understanding is that the main practical point the RMT are making about guards involvement in this incident was that they were responsible for the safe evacuation of passengers and for preventing self-detrainment.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Well a 319 and a 150 both qualify as being of similar construction to a 455 seeing as tho they are all Mk3 derived stock. Stock used in the area being 142, 150, 156 amd 319 of northern, EMTs 156 and 158, TPEs 185 and virgins 390 fleets so in most casea the trains either matched or would have bettered the standard.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Is anybody able to report on how busy the 0935 Chester to Euston has been since the Liverpool disruption began? We've seats booked on this service, the first off-peak working of the day, next Wednesday to connect with a Eurostar.

We are bit concerned that we may struggle to find space for our two biggish holdalls if it is overcrowded with extra passengers who would normally travel from Liverpool. In fact, living on the Wirral, we normally travel from Lime Street when we have big bags as there is more room on the trains, but webooked from Chester on this occasion due to the loop closure.

 

[tsr]

My understanding is that the main practical point the RMT are making about guards involvement in this incident was that they were responsible for ... preventing self-detrainment.

They didn't manage that, from what I read.

However, I would say that the rest of what I read about the guards/TMs involved implied that they did put a lot of effort in, in very trying circumstances, to deal with the incident.

 

[furnessvale]

I will ask again, was it actually 200 tonnes that fell?

Be it 80 tonnes or 200 tonnes it certainly wasn't a single lump but a collection of stones from the wall and backfill.

The largest single piece was probably in the order of 2 tonnes.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is anybody able to report on how busy the 0935 Chester to Euston has been since the Liverpool disruption began? We've seats booked on this service, the first off-peak working of the day, next Wednesday to connect with a Eurostar.

We are bit concerned that we may struggle to find space for our two biggish holdalls if it is overcrowded with extra passengers who would normally travel from Liverpool. In fact, living on the Wirral, we normally travel from Lime Street when we have big bags as there is more room on the trains, but webooked from Chester on this occasion due to the loop closure.

The 0935 is always busy, without the added traffic from Liverpool.
It is only a single Voyager.
Depending on the flexibility of your ticket, and your time constraints, you might consider switching to a following Pendolino at Crewe.
The ex-Liverpool (ex-Runcorn of course, for now) goes at 1022 and the ex-Manchester at 1029.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

Is anybody able to report on how busy the 0935 Chester to Euston has been since the Liverpool disruption began? We've seats booked on this service, the first off-peak working of the day, next Wednesday to connect with a Eurostar.

We are bit concerned that we may struggle to find space for our two biggish holdalls if it is overcrowded with extra passengers who would normally travel from Liverpool. In fact, living on the Wirral, we normally travel from Lime Street when we have big bags as there is more room on the trains, but webooked from Chester on this occasion due to the loop closure.

I don't know about Virgin Voyager's, but big luggage is always a nightmare on Eurostar standard-class.

 

[QueensCurve]

It seems that Network rail are proposing to use netting to protect the line pending a permanent repair. They are still not expecting to have the line opened before Thursday 9 March.

Ref: https://twitter.com/BBCNWT/status/837662770631933952

 

[Old Yard Dog]

I don't know about Virgin Voyager's, but big luggage is always a nightmare on Eurostar standard-class.

They are not huge holdalls but they are too big to go on the overhead shelves on Virgin Voyagers or Pendolinos.

We've been with Eurostar a couple of times recently with the same bags and there was no problem at all, nor on the TGVs in France.

 

[rebmcr]

There's a 30mph TSR on that 4th track!

Actually it's a 0mph ESR.

 

[JamesP]

Is anybody able to report on how busy the 0935 Chester to Euston has been since the Liverpool disruption began? We've seats booked on this service, the first off-peak working of the day, next Wednesday to connect with a Eurostar.

We are bit concerned that we may struggle to find space for our two biggish holdalls if it is overcrowded with extra passengers who would normally travel from Liverpool. In fact, living on the Wirral, we normally travel from Lime Street when we have big bags as there is more room on the trains, but webooked from Chester on this occasion due to the loop closure.

I was on it as far as Crewe yesterday morning and it was reasonably well loaded but no busier than normal. However there did seem to be quite a few waiting to get on at Crewe.

 

[AlterEgo]

They didn't manage that, from what I read.

However, I would say that the rest of what I read about the guards/TMs involved implied that they did put a lot of effort in, in very trying circumstances, to deal with the incident.

Are you suggesting passengers detrained during this incident? Or have I misread?

 

[Arcadia77]

Are you suggesting passengers detrained during this incident? Or have I misread?

Saw one post on Twitter suggesting that happened on the VT service.

 

[Arcadia77]

https://twitter.com/Listen2Cheshire/status/836688432055349248

And

https://twitter.com/Listen2Cheshire/status/836689450444914688

 

[PeterStoba]

Yes passengers were detrained and had to walk to Edge Hill station for taxis to Lime Street.

 

[LeylandLen]

Not sure if this is relevant but there was an ECS (3 x 319s )stock movement for Northern from Preston dep 1024 to Allerton via Crewe today ..

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O77768/2017/03/03/advanced

 

[tsr]

Are you suggesting passengers detrained during this incident? Or have I misread?

You read correctly!

Saw one post on Twitter suggesting that happened on the VT service.

https://twitter.com/Listen2Cheshire/status/836688432055349248

And

https://twitter.com/Listen2Cheshire/status/836689450444914688

Yep, that's pretty much exactly what I heard.

Yes passengers were detrained and had to walk to Edge Hill station for taxis to Lime Street.

Some passengers also exited the trains of their own accord and trespassed on the railway.