Liverpool Lime St. - Norwich

[xtradj]

looks like all services stop at widnes too, and there was a timetable error!

2 cancellations this morning, with 1 having to start from warrington due to lateness.. seems like its back to square one again

was it a 4 coach train you were on?
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and with regards to platform 6, i was thinking of this today..

with 7 taken up by Virgin, and 8/9 needed for local service to Man Oxford Rd and 2 Bham services per hour, maybe there now isnt room for EMT on 8/9?

 

[djw1981]

pluged or plagued..... as I;d be confused by the former.....

 

[John_158]

I actually surgested it to EMT becuse there was an incredible ammount of people boarding the train on Platfroms 8&9 without tickets for which seems to have been cut down by using Platfroms 5&6.

The 20.31 Arrival did come in at the far end of Platfrom 9 which was 156403 surprsingly it seems as thogh this is covering for the unit in for refurbishment.

The 17.52 to Nottingham ran as four coaches which where 158863 & 15866 (ex alpha line units.

Intersing to see if it stays this way through till saturday.

 

[xtradj]

I actually surgested it to EMT becuse there was an incredible ammount of people boarding the train on Platfroms 8&9 without tickets for which seems to have been cut down by using Platfroms 5&6.

The 20.31 Arrival did come in at the far end of Platfrom 9 which was 156403 surprsingly it seems as thogh this is covering for the unit in for refurbishment.

The 17.52 to Nottingham ran as four coaches which where 158863 & 15866 (ex alpha line units.

Intersing to see if it stays this way through till saturday.

still cant belive 156's run from norwich to liverpool, one of the longest routes in the UK.. class 170's were the way forward with central trains.. even 4 coach 158's arnt so bad, but a 156?

seems like EMT are more interested in raking in from the new ''Nowhere'' to London, with brand new trains. I mean is there really a need? Lincoln to London, Corby to London etc when theres already many many trains running to london from close bigger cities already?

 

[John_158]

Id rather have one of EMTs 156s than those horrible green ex CT 158s which give me pins and needles in my feet and legs because basically I like Chapman seats as the posture etc is good plus 156403 is a pretty fast one too as with almost all of them as 408 is a bit loud and sluggish still they keep to the time table as 403 only turned up two minutes late at Widnes on the 20.05 to LLST but arrived about 4 Mins early.

As for services to London yes I thin there are too many but yet i would like to see EMT run a one per day in each direction from Liverpool to London St Pan Via Sheffield and Nottingham with a HST or Meridian say the 07.47From LLST.

London Midland do a 10.19am from LLST to London Euston which I think at one time was the Stanstead Airport Service so cannot see what is stopping EMT as if they want to improve there reputation on the Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield section of the Norwich route this would be the way to do it even a Summer Service from L-Pool to Skegness would be ideal.

One thing that has made me think about this route is them stopping at LSPW which I don’t really think it needs to but yet I think it would be better for the Liverpool-Norwich to swap paths with the LLST-Manchester Airport Service and go Via Newton Le Willows to Norwich and to Manchester Airport Via LSPW giving a Link Between Manchester Airport and Liverpool Airport.

Photo of 156403 in LLST http://www.railwayphotos.fotopic.net/p55421284.html

 

[tbtc]

At the moment, it's just a massive 'local' service which just isn't working for anybody

...and that's it in a nutshell.

You can't solve this route without serious reinforcements, and as it already serves some very busy spots there's not scope for many additional services alongside it.

Personally I'd suggest reducing the "through" service to every three or four hours, and supplementing it with other services to maintain an hourly service on all stretches (e.g. Liverpool - Sheffield, Sheffield - Grantham etc) to ensure a degree of reliability for "local" passengers

 

[djw1981]

Also, DfT decided to give the 170's to XC and LM when Central was split up, and with the way the franchise is written, new stock is hard to get. The biggest hope might be electrification of GWML in 2010-15, and the resulting cascade of HST to EMT allowing them to release 222 from the London services (or MML electrification allowing the same 222 cascade).

 

[WillPS]

Also, DfT decided to give the 170's to XC and LM when Central was split up, and with the way the franchise is written, new stock is hard to get. The biggest hope might be electrification of GWML in 2010-15, and the resulting cascade of HST to EMT allowing them to release 222 from the London services (or MML electrification allowing the same 222 cascade).

Turbostars are perfect for this route, but there's a fat chance of any of them ending up with EMT unless any new build happens (which it can't until at least 2015, apparently). I personally think London Midland's need for these is not as great as EMT's, but nothing is likely to be done about that now.

222s do look like a likely successor. Any chance of them being authorised to take Sprinter speeds like the Turbostars eventually were?

 

[John_158]

With regards to the Class 170s / Turbo Stars from what i make of things Stagecoah don't actually like them as they got rid of them from SWT so that goves me the impresion that they don't like em probably becuse of the lack of end corridoor connection .

 

[WillPS]

I don't think there's much if any group standardisation within the TOCs, I think National Express used to standardise on Turbostars (they bought loads at the same time for Midland Mainline, Central Trains and c2c). A modern example is the Adelante's that First Great Western were so keen to get rid of - some of them are now with First Hull Trains - another First group company.

 

[Pumbaa]

With regards to the Class 170s / Turbo Stars from what i make of things Stagecoah don't actually like them as they got rid of them from SWT so that goves me the impresion that they don't like em probably becuse of the lack of end corridoor connection .

The 170s worked alongside the 158s on the West of England route. It made more sense that the fleet was uniform (wasn't SDO also an issue?) and so they arranged to swap with TPE.

 

[P156KWJ]

I find it odd that I see London Midland 170s with 153s nearly empty running around Birmingham, and if 3 car turbostars were running on Liverpool-Norwich again this'd suit their 100mph capabilities and the 158s with their 90mph speed limit could be used with 153s throughout the West Midlands on less-used routes the 170s have.

We still have 156s on pretty much all Lincoln services apart from the ones to/from London and the last Lincoln-Nottingham train, all booked 5-car meridians. 153s would be okay for off-peak diagrams for this route.

 

[WillPS]

Is it plausible that the DFT could order London Midland to swap their 170s for some of EMTs Sprinters?

This would screw up LM's plans for a Turbostar dominated fleet, but still on a needs basis I think its fair to say Norwich-Liverpool needs Turbostars more than those underused little lines.

 

[jacknottm]

After they're now in London Midland Livery and the majority of them being refreshed, it would appear that there not going anywhere anytime soon. Although, were'nt cross country promised a few?

Jack

 

[djw1981]

DfT specified the current allocation, and DfT admits no errors so it is very unlikely.

 

[AlexS]

The under used little lines, certainly to Hereford and Shrewsbury, fill the Turbostars both off and on peak - 4 car trains are full and standing during peak periods - and are recording year on year large increases in passengers.

I doubt the people of the West Midlands would take too well to having newly refurbished trains switched for knackered scrap, either.

 

[John_158]

I believe that Chiltern due some new Stock or is it just introduction of Loco Haulage Stock if so then would EMT be able to gain some of there 5 car 168s after all these are part of the Turbo Star Family and wouldn't be to bad if they displaced at least five of them which would enable more diagrams on this route four or three coaches worked.

One thing i noticed last night is that they did send four coaches for the 17.52 but yet 158846 had a failed carriage for which from my view they could have split it and taken the defective carriage off and repaired whilst attaching the good carriage to the front of 158866 then when it returned 158866 & the good carriage of 846 put back with the repaired carriage putting the unit back together.

To me thus would speed up the maintenance and still providing three carriages as there was only three carriages in passenger use anyway last night which is still better than just two as three seems just right four is perfect.

By the way things are definitely back to Normal on this route as the 17.31 arrival from Norwich which works the 17.52 arrived 32minutes late for which the 17.52 departed about 17minutes late.

The time keeping on this route was far better when it only ran to Sheffield i think its about time that they changed the route to operate along the LMR instead of the CLC and put the Manchester Airport along the CLC instead.

 

[P156KWJ]

168s aren't part of the turbostar family are they? They're part of the turbo family, which AFAIK isn't able t work in multiple with sprinters, albeit they do have BSI couplers?

 

[John_158]

Yes they are part of the turbos star Family see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_168 but im sure there are some of five & six car formations so therefore would not need to be worked in multiple with Sprinters.

 

[AlexS]

They have a maximum of 4 coaches and a minimum of 3 and run in multiple to make 6.

The whole Turbostar family is based on the NSE Network Turbo design. The original 168/0s show this heritage the most obviously but the lineage does continue right through. 168s are pretty much 170s with a different coupler pin code (NSE Turbo units not compatible electrically with sprinters to stop them being robbed for Regional Railways services) and a tripcock system for running over LU lines.

 

[Techniquest]

The under used little lines, certainly to Hereford and Shrewsbury, fill the Turbostars both off and on peak - 4 car trains are full and standing during peak periods - and are recording year on year large increases in passengers.

I doubt the people of the West Midlands would take too well to having newly refurbished trains switched for knackered scrap, either.

I don't disagree there, it's amazing how full the TurboRats can get, especially if you dare to try and get on anytime between 1649 and 1819...

As much as I don't like 170s as such, they're alright little machines and I certainly would NOT swap for a 150 or such like on all of the trains again! We've grown used to the good standard of comfort on 170s, which compared to the 150s and 153s are rather luxurious. I admit, I love the noise 150s make (except when I've a headache, which buggered up a plan of mine back in January 2006 - I just had to get off 150281 at Swansea and give the Nurofen a chance to work, it was that bad), and as much as I disagree with Ascot on the seats having springs sticking out (I've yet to notice it on the 150s), the comfort just doesn't compare to the 170s.

So in my eyes, EMT can put up with their 158s (I still can't get used to Alphaline liveried 158s in Anglia and the North though, that's bizarre) and we're keeping our 170s!

 

[WillPS]

I think it's important to remain objective here. Everybody wants the best trains... hell if I could have Turbostars on Sheffield-Lincoln and the Robin Hood Line I'd be over the moon. These two lines both get very busy at peak times too.

However, they are not 5+ hour end-to-end routes, with consistently high levels of traffic. I don't know these minor London Midland routes, but I can only assume they are not either.

It's clear to me that the DFT made a mistake when they divided up Central Trains (tbh I think dividing it up was a mistake). This has clearly left London Midland with 170s on routes which do not need them as much as Norwich-Liverpool.

4 or even 3 car refurbished 158s are adequate for this route, 2 cars are not. By this, I mean that this would be an acceptable way forward for EMT making the best of a bad bunch.

A 3+ car Turbostar (or a 4/5-car Pioneer/Meridian if they ever get Sprinter speed clearance) are what is ultimately needed though.

 

[djw1981]

Tobe fair the 'not need' is your opinion, not fact. You say that you don't know the routes. Maybe time to lobby the Transport Secretary (Geoff Hoon, MP for Ash-something or other in Notts) to give EMT 6 of the cl172's. Remind him of the upcoming election and the marginal nature of many east mids Labour seats.

 

[John_158]

To be honest in my view i think EMT would actually be better with at least six of Northern 156s to free up six 158s to be spilt giving an extra carriage to eleven of the existing 158s as Northern are due most of the 150s from LM.

Also last night the last train of theirs into Liverpool the 21.31 Arrival from Norwich did not show up no announcement nothing and the impression i got was that EMT and Northern new it was going to be canceled some where en route because Northern put a 156 on there 21.14 Service from MOX to LLST which Normally 6days a week is a 142 booked diagram.

Does anyone know what Happened to it ?

But the bizzar thing is they Ran the 21.35 from LLST to NOTT only about five minutes late which was probably the unit and crewe from the 20.31 Arrival from Norwich which Normally runs ECS to crewe for the Crewe-Derby the next day.

EMT certainly need to sort this out as i suspect we may be going back to the Old Central Trains ruling which saw late running trains turn back at Warrington Central which is not fair on people such as my self a regular user of EMTs Liverpool-Norwich Service waiting at Widnes for an hour.

 

[Kneedown]

I think it's important to remain objective here. Everybody wants the best trains... hell if I could have Turbostars on Sheffield-Lincoln and the Robin Hood Line I'd be over the moon. These two lines both get very busy at peak times too.

However, they are not 5+ hour end-to-end routes, with consistently high levels of traffic. I don't know these minor London Midland routes, but I can only assume they are not either.

It's clear to me that the DFT made a mistake when they divided up Central Trains (tbh I think dividing it up was a mistake). This has clearly left London Midland with 170s on routes which do not need them as much as Norwich-Liverpool.

4 or even 3 car refurbished 158s are adequate for this route, 2 cars are not. By this, I mean that this would be an acceptable way forward for EMT making the best of a bad bunch.

A 3+ car Turbostar (or a 4/5-car Pioneer/Meridian if they ever get Sprinter speed clearance) are what is ultimately needed though.

For a long term solution 170's are most certainly not the answer. They are far to sluggish getting up to speed. The gradients over the Hope Valley used to be too much for them, and if you had to brake because a siggie was late clearing his distant, then you'd had it.
Something a lot quicker off the mark is needed.
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Tobe fair the 'not need' is your opinion, not fact. You say that you don't know the routes. Maybe time to lobby the Transport Secretary (Geoff Hoon, MP for Ash-something or other in Notts) to give EMT 6 of the cl172's. Remind him of the upcoming election and the marginal nature of many east mids Labour seats.

172's no good either. 75mph top speed. Plus, i'd sooner we made do with the rubbish we've got than see Labour keep their seats!

 

[P156KWJ]

To be honest in my view i think EMT would actually be better with at least six of Northern 156s to free up six 158s to be spilt giving an extra carriage to eleven of the existing 158s as Northern are due most of the 150s from LM.

Also last night the last train of theirs into Liverpool the 21.31 Arrival from Norwich did not show up no announcement nothing and the impression i got was that EMT and Northern new it was going to be canceled some where en route because Northern put a 156 on there 21.14 Service from MOX to LLST which Normally 6days a week is a 142 booked diagram.

Does anyone know what Happened to it ?

But the bizzar thing is they Ran the 21.35 from LLST to NOTT only about five minutes late which was probably the unit and crewe from the 20.31 Arrival from Norwich which Normally runs ECS to crewe for the Crewe-Derby the next day.

EMT certainly need to sort this out as i suspect we may be going back to the Old Central Trains ruling which saw late running trains turn back at Warrington Central which is not fair on people such as my self a regular user of EMTs Liverpool-Norwich Service waiting at Widnes for an hour.

Really they shouldn't have removed the centre-cars from the ex TPE 158s. Can you imagine what it'd be like if they hadn't transferred the 158s to us now?

 

[djw1981]

For a long term solution 170's are most certainly not the answer. They are far to sluggish getting up to speed. The gradients over the Hope Valley used to be too much for them, and if you had to brake because a siggie was late clearing his distant, then you'd had it.
Something a lot quicker off the mark is needed.
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172's no good either. 75mph top speed. Plus, i'd sooner we made do with the rubbish we've got than see Labour keep their seats!

IIRC there were going to be different flavours of 172 though.,...given that no more 170's could be built. Or maybe a lighter-weight Desiro, to go with LM's new 350 fleet.

 

[tbtc]

However, they are not 5+ hour end-to-end routes, with consistently high levels of traffic

Aye, but very very few people are using this service for journeys anywhere near that long - most of the passengers are on journeys of up to two hours.

At least on a service from London to Glasgow (a comparable time) you know that a number of passengers are going end to end, but really the Liverpool - Norwich service is a dozen "local" services tagged on to each other.
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EMT certainly need to sort this out as i suspect we may be going back to the Old Central Trains ruling which saw late running trains turn back at Warrington Central which is not fair on people such as my self a regular user of EMTs Liverpool-Norwich Service waiting at Widnes for an hour.

Are there no other trains between Liverpool and Widness?

 

[ashworth]

Aye, but very very few people are using this service for journeys anywhere near that long - most of the passengers are on journeys of up to two hours.

At least on a service from London to Glasgow (a comparable time) you know that a number of passengers are going end to end, but really the Liverpool - Norwich service is a dozen "local" services tagged on to each other.

I am not sure that is actually completely the case.
True, the service is used by lots of people travelling short local journeys like, Liverpool-Manchester, Manchester-Sheffield, Sheffield-Nottingham, Nottingham-Grantham etc.

However, although there are very few people who travel the whole journey from Norwich to Liverpool, there are very large numbers of passengers who travel on this service for fairly long journeys of 2 hours or considerably more.
Some of the journeys (and their returns) very popular on this route are:
Norwich to both Nottingham and Sheffield
Nottingham to Manchester and Liverpool
Peterborough to Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool
Even Peterborough to Norwich and Liverpool to Sheffield are not short journeys and these are very well used.
The longer journey opportunities that this route provides also from stations not listed above like Warrington, Chesterfield, Alfreton, Grantham, Ely are also important to many people.

This is a very important route for passengers wanting to make longer journeys without the inconvenience of having to change trains. Lots of people do not want to change trains and would often rather put up with slightly longer journey times.
It is much more than a series of local routes joined together.

There would be far more people willing to use this service if it wasn't so overcrowded. I agree that perhaps sometimes there are not as many longer distance travellers as you would expect on this route but if you have had to endure a 4 or 5 hour journey in a grossly overcrowded 2 car 158 would you use it again?
With longer trains and more space to spread out and move around the train I am sure there would be a big increase in the number of longer journeys made on this service and then, yes, perhaps even a significant number of passengers travelling the whole route.

 

[jacknottm]

156403 formed the 18.57 Norwich - Nottingham last night and was actually 7 mins early arriving at Nottingham, also keeping to time all the way

Just goes to show you that 156s could be easily used on this route...