Liverpool Norwich service to be split at Nottingham

[Ianno87]

not if they have got much luggage!

Most passengers will still have a through train. The small minority that cross Nottingham will lose out.

 

[edwin_m]

8.30 Leicester, 9.05 Nottingham, 9.26 Langley Mill (!), 9.33 Alfreton & Mansfield Parkway, 9.46 Chesterfield, 10.03 Sheffield, 11.02 Piccadilly, Blackpool North 12.20 (Table 49) Restaurant car as well as all the rest.

None of the relevant units had anything resembling a restaurant car - was this a loco-hauled?

I'll have to make a trip to the NRM and check their timetables! I'm pretty sure they did start/finish at Leicester.

Regarding Ipswich - Derby, there was a return Derby - Ipswich service when the 150/1s first arrived at Etches Park; I used it on a summer afternoon back from Ipswich, but I can't remember if it went north of Derby

The one I referred to was probably this one:

7.58 Nottingham, 8.18 Derby, 8.43 Chesterfield, 9.43 Piccadilly, Express service, trolley, bookable. That went round the Dore curve.

Although I was thinking of 1988, it may have been truncated by 1989. See above for evidence that one did in fact serve Leicester...

 

[grumpyoldman01]

I have in front of me the May 1989 timetable Table 56, Nottingham and Derby - Sheffield.

6.58 Derby, 7.39 Sheffield, Piccadilly 8.43 through service with trolley service, reservations available. Nottingham - Glasgows which went

7.58 Nottingham, 8.18 Derby, 8.43 Chesterfield, 9.43 Piccadilly, Express service, trolley, bookable. That went round the Dore curve.

8.30 Leicester, 9.05 Nottingham, 9.26 Langley Mill (!), 9.33 Alfreton & Mansfield Parkway, 9.46 Chesterfield, 10.03 Sheffield, 11.02 Piccadilly, Blackpool North 12.20 (Table 49) Restaurant car as well as all the rest.

There were more direct trains between the Midlands and Manchester, most from Derby via Sheffield and from Nottingham via the Dore curve, but I haven't time to type it all up.

However, in those days the MML was quieter and the Hope Valley line didn't have an hourly stopping service and 2 tph fasts. The double tracking through Dore, and on the Dore curve, had only just been lifted. Railways were still perceived to be in decline, although in truth the pendulum was starting to swing back.

The specific example I'm talking about is later than 1989, but there certainly were some interesting workings at the time when the NW England - East Anglia service was introduced and operated by 156s

On the general point about services between the East Midlands and Manchester, for a while there were Nottingham - Glasgows which went via the Hope Valley; from Chinley, they went via New Mills to Ashburys, then round through Miles Platting to Manchester Victoria, then over Shap. I remember doing the trip (as far as Manchester) in Mk Is behind a class 45 - best guess is late 1970s

 

[WesternLancer]

I have in front of me the May 1989 timetable Table 56, Nottingham and Derby - Sheffield.

6.58 Derby, 7.39 Sheffield, Piccadilly 8.43 through service with trolley service, reservations available.

7.58 Nottingham, 8.18 Derby, 8.43 Chesterfield, 9.43 Piccadilly, Express service, trolley, bookable. That went round the Dore curve.

8.30 Leicester, 9.05 Nottingham, 9.26 Langley Mill (!), 9.33 Alfreton & Mansfield Parkway, 9.46 Chesterfield, 10.03 Sheffield, 11.02 Piccadilly, Blackpool North 12.20 (Table 49) Restaurant car as well as all the rest.

There were more direct trains between the Midlands and Manchester, most from Derby via Sheffield and from Nottingham via the Dore curve, but I haven't time to type it all up.

However, in those days the MML was quieter and the Hope Valley line didn't have an hourly stopping service and 2 tph fasts. The double tracking through Dore, and on the Dore curve, had only just been lifted. Railways were still perceived to be in decline, although in truth the pendulum was starting to swing back.

Good stuff! Restaurant Car in 1989? Who operated that? Inter City? Obv not a 156 or 158...

 

[Fleetwoodflyer]

We travelled from Blackpool North to Nottingham and back direct several times in the mid to late 80s on the loco-hauled Harwich Boat Train, that was superseded by the Super Sprinter service which went direct to Cambridge or Stansted on alternate departures.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

A group of us caught the 07.58 Nottingham to Manchester around Spring 1989 on a Uni hunting trip. I remember it calling at Derby as a classmate boarded their but had forgotten that it went via Dore curve!

 

[ashkeba]

The logical reason is that "Cross Country" has always been defined by its main routes all going through Birmingham New Street.

Is "main" in that definition just to try to dismiss that Cross Country used to run Manchester-Edinburgh services and various ones terminating at New Street and International (if I remember correctly), as well as the ones running through Birmingham?

I do not understand why XC does not have a second hub in the east midlands anyway. Is it just to avoid Norwich-Liverpool and the future Bristol-Norwich being justifiable to give to XC?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is "main" in that definition just to try to dismiss that Cross Country used to run Manchester-Edinburgh services and various ones terminating at New Street and International (if I remember correctly), as well as the ones running through Birmingham?

I do not understand why XC does not have a second hub in the east midlands anyway. Is it just to avoid Norwich-Liverpool and the future Bristol-Norwich being justifiable to give to XC?

Well I wasn’t trying to dismiss anything. It was DfT who defined XC as the TOC whose routes passed through New St, when they rejigged everything in around 2006/2007, and decided VWC & TPE between them should run the northern WCML sections of the existing routes.

I’ve always believed transferring the minor XC routes inherited from Central Trains was a mistake, which led to expectations about those services that were never achievable. Many other posters have agreed with this point over the years, XC would be far more focussed if it just ran the long distance routes, might even have had a better case for more long distance rolling stock without the midlands stuff to worry about...

 

[ashkeba]

Oh yes I think we can all agree about DfT's bizarre ideas about franchise areas over the years.

I believe transferring the Central Citylink routes became a mistake only when XC were not allowed, encouraged or required to obtain IC-class rolling stock to operate them. Even bigger mistake to transfer the Express class away and allow them to be operated by grubby little Turbostars.

I think the break-up of this EMR service is reaping the seeds of destruction sown by not making Norwich-Manchester an IC service but also not clearly defining what a Regional Express means in the UK. Transferring to XC might have helped but I do wonder how much longer XC non-IC routes will last.